Whirlwind – A SawStop Killer?

Written on 02/04/2011

Marc Spagnuolo

Could SawStop be their own worst enemy?!?! Check out the Whirlwind system.

A recent article on USA Today’s website states that the Consumer Products Safety Commission is on a mission to prevent debilitating tablesaw injuries. The goal? To require saw-makers to include “flesh-detecting technology” in their tablesaws, much like they are now required to include riving knives. The driving force behind all this is Steve Gass, the patent lawyer and inventor of SawStop. Regardless of how one feels about Sawstop, the company or the technology, it seems that most folks view government intervention as a major negative. As responsible saw owners, most of us know that proper training and safe practices are the best way to prevent accidents.

Honestly, this is just another chapter in the saga of SawStop and I am sure most of you are sick of hearing about it. But one of the things that bugs me the most about this situation is the lack of competitive alternatives to SawStop technology. Well, thanks to a link from Jim in the WTO Forum, a potential competitor was brought to my attention and its called Whirlwind. Here’s how it works, according to the website:

“If an operator contacts the proximity sensors in the electronic fence, this triggers the emergency stop. Our latest prototype can stop a typical bench-top saw motor, without damage, in about 1/8 of a second.”

The site features a number of videos but you won’t get to see a great deal of detail. There are, however, a number of intriguing things about this system. First, the brake is triggered BEFORE you touch the blade, which means no stitches and no bandaids. It passes the “hot dog test” without so much as a scratch on the wiener! Second, the braking mechanism does not destroy your blade and doesn’t seem to require replaceable parts. Third, the system incorporates what looks to be flawless dust collection. Not sure how this part works but they seem to push it as a feature.

From what the inventors say, it looks as though they are trying to market the technology directly to tool companies via licensing agreements. Now I won’t pretend to know how well this product works or how realistic it is to think it could effectively be added to current saws at a low cost, but it certainly is intriguing. And it has me thinking about the big picture.

Forgive me for speculating here, but could SawStop’s efforts to force its way into your shop potentially back-fire on them? Right now, they seem to be enjoying a successful run. In fact, I know MANY of you are satisfied SawStop owners. But with increased pressure from not only the marketplace but also the government (potentially), I have to imagine the big tool manufacturers are thinking long and hard about alternative flesh-detecting technologies. And should a competing technology become available as an add-on for every make and model saw on the market, what would happen to SawStop?? We know they make a high quality saw, but would that be enough to survive in an entire market FULL of high quality flesh-detecting saws that have nothing to do with SawStop technology? I don’t know the answer, but the old saying “Be careful what you wish for!” comes to mind.

So what do you folks think about Whirlwind? Could SawStop be shooting itself in the foot by trying to do more than simply sell a great product? With the little info we have, its hard to make a real judgement call here. But do you think an alternative technology is on its way? Could something like that spell the end of a tool company many folks have grown to love? I welcome your opinions, but I do ask that we keep the anti-SawStop and anti-government stuff to a minimum.

Tim

on 02/04/2011 at 01:41 AM

I am, by no means, an anti-SawStop individual. But I agree that, as woodworkers, we have a certain level of responsibility to ourselves and to each other to develop safe habits around our table saws, as well as our other woodworking tools and equipment. No guard or safety mechanism can ever replace common sense and a keen sense of awareness. Having said that, SawStop is a brilliant company. They took what is considered to be one of the most dangerous tools in the shop and gave many potential woodworkers peace of mind. That most definitely increased the number of woodworkers here, and bred a new generation of tablesaw users. But this glorious epiphany is like any that dawns upon a brilliant mind. Once it is realized and put into production, it opens the door to competition. The Whirlwind seems like a viable competitor to SawStop technology, and it will definitely attract woodworkers that don’t want to destroy blades on their saws. But SawStop has already proven itself with its technology and with its manufacturing quality. Until a more solid footing is gained by Whirlwind or any other blade stopping technology, SawStop will continue to dominate its market.So what if the government institutes a new policy on safe table saws, where all saws have blade stopping technology? Then go vintage, and by vintage I mean anything pre-blade stopping technology. Many woodworkers already know the joy of restoring an old plane or chisel to working order. Why not a table saw? More work, sure, but the result is a saw you restored and finished the way you wanted to. If that doesn’t appeal to you, and you don’t want any fancy blade stopping technology, then get really friendly with the table saw you own currently. It may be there for a loooong time.

Vladimir Radulovic

on 02/04/2011 at 03:18 AM

If I were in the market for a new saw, and this system was commercially available, I would definitely consider it. The fact that sawblades don’t get destroyed and there are no replacements needed, is IMO a big plus for the Whirlwind.Some time ago, however, I came across this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VbYuJYhxLM. It’s about a new(ish) saw from Metabo. While it does look like one of those really cheap tablesaws, I really loved the idea behind it. The motor/saw/height and tilting assembly is mounted on bars inside the cabinet. Instead of moving the workpiece through the saw, you clamp the workpiece to the saw table and move the saw through it, by pulling a lever.The user then doesn’t have to put his hands anywhere near the spinning blade, which means that dangerous situations can be avoided altogether. And that’s by far the best safety precaution, right?If this idea were “scaled-up” – to the size of a sliding table saw, maybe – I think it could become a serious alternative to the standard table saw. Beside the safety advantage there wold be other advantages, like for instance:– Trimming rough edges off boards easily: clamp rough board to table and rip (a laser sight would make this even easier)– Far smaller space requirement than a sliding table saw, but similar functionality: when ripping, the board would not have to travel its own length.– Easier cross-cutting of long pieces– Stopped grooves: clamp workpiece, raise spinning blade, make cut, lower blade, unclamp.– When cutting sheet goods: possibility of first scoring with a climb-cut and then cutting through, without the need of a scoring blade.– With a locking mechanism it would work the same as a standard tablesaw.– etc.Regards from Slovenia,Vladimir

Bill Akins

on 02/04/2011 at 07:19 AM

First and foremost, personal resposibility is the most important thing to consider. More people want to play the blame game now-a-days. I think the technology that SawStop is a wonderful thing. It wouldn’t bother me if all table saws carried this safety feature. If SawStop thinks that all other companies will have to use their technology then they are highly mistaken and they just might shoot themselves in the foot. I’m afraid when the technology goes across the board that, as usual, a lot of the companies will make the cheapest version of flesh detection imaginable. This will result in catastrophic failure and then the 1.5 million lawsuits will be a 1000 fold. Also the personal resposibility level will drop to an all new low.

Stelios L.A. Stavrinides

on 02/04/2011 at 07:48 AM

Whirlwind looks very promising, and I know many people would love to see the saw stop monopoly to come to an end. Saw Stop?s marketing sales promotion had made lots of people to react against them. It looks to me that SS is pushing the psychological factor of fear to establish their product in the market ?if you don?t have a SS you may loose a finger?.Whirlwind if it makes the market could have an advantage, it will be an additional safety accessory to your TS (no need to change your TS) and if the price is good most woodworkers could go for it. SS advantage is that it will still protects you even without a blade guard, while Whirlwind is a blade guard by its self, what happens when you want to remove it – No protection – In both cases I don?t know how both systems react when using a stacked dado blade. All ads I see are for a single blade, and the momentum of a dado blade is much different than a single blade, what that would do to the motor, will it stop within that frame time? That said I am not sure even if all TS can stop without any damage so fast, if this is true then Whirlwind could have one more advantage here, it could push the product as well into the European market and because of that 10sec low that every blade should stop under 10sec, could made dado blades to be allowed. And open a different market possibility.It was about to happen and it will happen, someone will want to take a piece of the pie out of the hands of SS. Personally if Whirlwind makes the market I will go for it, because I would like that safety feature on my TS, and I cannot afford to change my TS.Steli

Glen

on 02/04/2011 at 08:11 AM

Thanks for posting this Marc. Since this has been all over the news recently, as well as several topics a week over at LJs, I thought that it was worth commenting (my first time posting). Looks like an interesting alternative to Sawstop, but, like most table saw guard systems, it fails when you take off the guard. I wonder how many table saw accidents occur because the guard was removed? While Sawstop destroys the blade, it does work with, or without a blade guard in place. How often do we take off the guard because it gets in the way or is impractical for the operation that we’re doing? Unfortunately, this post will likely start another one of the perpetual ?don?t tread on my? debates. I saw in the news this morning that a 62 year old contractor in the next town lost two and a half fingers in a table saw accident on a jobsite yesterday. It’s a sad state of affairs, but this reminds me, like the Ryobi case, that for the majority of users, perceived cost is the primary driver. And perceived cost depends on the person, and includes all sorts of intangibles. For some people it is the raw cost paid to the store, for others it includes costs for accidents etc. Sawstop/Whirlwind cost money, and thus a lot of people just won’t pay for it. Some people may disguise this as a moral problem with an inventor trying to make money on his invention before his patent expires (that?s business right?), but ultimately it?s the customers choice to buy or not to buy. I think that a fair analogy is car seatbelts. People complain about being forced to wear seatbelts all the time (I remember protests in NH when I was a teenager!), and ideally we shouldn?t need them because we?re all trained to drive correctly. But for that one unforeseen accident caused by a distraction or someone else, they may save your life. If people really have a moral problem with safety equipment being mandated on new equipment, then buy used. The consumer always has a choice, but it may just not be convenient (for example, I can?t think of a non-big box store that cells woodworking machinery within 50 miles of where I live, and I live along the Rte 95 corridor between Philadelphia and NY!). I have several friends that have lost fingers (or parts of fingers) in table saw accidents; one is a part-time contractor and the other is a former cabinet makers. So you?d think that since I can technically afford a Sawstop, I would have been a prime candidate to buy one last year when I wanted to replace my portable tablesaw. Alas, no. When selecting my perceived cost, I factored in that a hybrid table saw was safer than the portable saw that I was using (even with added weight it would tip and rock when ripping 2x4s), in addition to the fact that it was for my hobby. I bought the best (hybrid) table saw that I was willing to spend the money on. Would I buy a Sawstop? Conceptually, yes, but not at the moment given the prices. Others may have a different set of values when coming up with their own perceived cost.

runningwood

on 02/04/2011 at 08:13 AM

I think this new product is great. Innovation is always welcome and added competition is always good for development of new ideas and for the consumer. I think ultimately this may affect SawStop slightly but they make a great saw even without the stop technology. They however will have to change and come up with new ideas if other products like this come out and possibly develop a product that does not destroy the blade and brake. Look at Apple and their first innovation of ( I think it was then called) GUI technology with a mouse. PC companies tried to copy but never quite matched Apples ease of use and the rest is history. Had I only bought Apple stock back then….

MikeD

on 02/04/2011 at 08:18 AM

Okay I will bite. I think the government needs to keep their involvement to a minimum. This flesh detecting tech can be a savior I am sure. I wouldn’t buy it. Woodworking in general is not the safest hobby or career choice. I get a splinter almost every time I am in the garage. What is to prevent me of that? Should I wear chainmail gloves when I woodwork. To me paying attention, wearing safety glasses, probably some sort of breathing apparatus, and plain old paying attention to WTH you are doing should keep you 97% healthy.Pretty soon, if the safety cops have anything to do with it, we will be woodworking in virtual reality. Anyone see Wall-E?

Will

on 02/04/2011 at 08:35 AM

Interesting technology. As a SawStop owner I’ll share a few of my thoughts about the two technologies:-it’s a small pain that my SS will destroy a blade if it detects flesh. That said, a) I have yet to trigger the safetey mechanism and b) the change of me triggering it and being out of a blade makes me more careful because having to make a trip to the store to buy a new blade/brake would be a PITA and set me back when my time is limited already. Thus in a way I feel like the way the SS works makes me more careful. -a nice feature of the SS system is that it effectively is implemented below the table surface. Notice the Whirlwind requires an alternate more complex mounting mechanism when using a riving knife and sled. I use my cross cutting sled a LOT (I do almost all cross cutting on my table saw, not at the miter saw, since I a zero clearance and better support for chip-out, and since i can make a larger cross cut). I have a SS contractor saw and have not yet spend the $140 or so dollars for their nifty new blade guard with improved kick back paws and dust collection. I suspect the new guard would work nearly as well as the Whirlwind for dust collection and the new kick back paws would be more effective, long term, compared to the Whirlwinds rubber coated paws. While bench cookies hold things initially, after their surface gets a bit dusty they don’t work nearly as well. I’m betting the kick-back paws on the Whirlwind might work similarly.-I’m concerned with the effectiveness of the Whirlwind over time since the blade guard, which implements the break mechanism, has to be precisely mounted over the saw blade. In order to accomodate different cuts you might have to switch between mounting methods or when using the alternate method move the strand from the left to the right of the saw. When doing so how easy will it be to maintain the proper location so that the safety mechanism works properly?-I love how I can flip up my blade guard on my SS to get complete access to the blade and stock to make sure I’m lined up properly. I dislike the little window the Whirlwind provides. It looks like there is no easy way to get the entire guard quickly out of the way while not screwing up the alignment.-It looks like the whirlwind stops the saw blade between 1/8 and 1 second. I believe the SS stops a lot faster. For situations where a hand or finger were to move very quickly into the path of the blade, I wonder if it would be possible to actually touch the blade and get seriously injured. At least with the SS the blade also retracts below the saw.The big question is how cheap can they make this. Tool companies can build and include it cheaply it may gain traction, but otherwise I doubt it will. In my opinion the SS, while it destroys your blade and requires a break change, is better technology, but it doesn’t come cheap, hence only SS makes saws with the technology at this time. It will be interesting to see where things go.Final comment: I don’t think walking around your saw and completing a cut by pulling the wood at you is such a great idea. Sure he didn’t have kick back but it seems like it would be awfully hard to pull without burning the wood a bit, especially all the burning you’d get just walking around the saw.

Jay

on 02/04/2011 at 08:37 AM

I think the American way has always been one of competition.If what you write is true, it appears SawStop is trying to push its product in a passive-aggressive yet nefarious way. I do give them a fair amount of credit for using resources at hand to market their product through non-conventional means, but I also think using the Government to do so has a bad smell to it. That is not meant to grind an axe on either organization.I have always been impressed with SawStop and had one of their saws on my ‘wishlist’ for some time. I even ordered the DVD and sat down with my wife to watch it. She was impressed. They seem to have a good product on the market and I’m leaving their saw on my list for now.Still, if there are other systems out there with a smaller market share at the current time, I hope the legislation for table saw safety fosters competitors to present those alternative systems with a brighter spot light.In the end, my hope is not for the success or failure of a particular flesh-detecting hardware company. Instead my hope is this will legislation will foster a great effort from each company to produce options for the consumer or end-user in the form of cost, comfort, usability, et cetera.

Brian

on 02/04/2011 at 09:11 AM

I posted this in a message board a while ago . . . I’ll just copy and paste:My best friend from high school worked for a small R&D design firm in Silicon Valley a few years ago. He told me that a large number of table saw manufacturers got together and contracted his company to design a similar blade braking technology. They had to do it so as not to infringe on the Sawstop patent. He said they designed a system that stopped the blade quicker and also didn’t destroy it. “Recharging” the system was not going to be too expensive either.He said they finished the design and delivered it with the understanding the the companies could use it as a base design and modify it on their own. His belief is that the companies probably would never put it into production. He thought they were just “covering” themselves should they ever be required to implement a braking system. I asked him which companies, and he said “you name it”. Basically all of them.(Keep in mind, I learned this all second hand through my friend, who didn’t actually work on the design . . . others did in his company)Take that for what you will . . . -Brian

A Burton

on 02/04/2011 at 09:36 AM

I was immediately hesitant about the whirlwind since many of the cuts woodworkers make cannot be completed with the guard intact very easily. Cutting tenons, through dados and using a crosscut sled would be difficult as well as quite a few jigs. I’m sure there may be a workaround for quite a few operations though. I then watched one of videos and learned they are try to appeal to the construction industry and quite frankly if the guys will use it may be a very good device in that capacity. The Ryobi lawsuit shows us how often standard blade guards are really used in construction on portable saws. I admit I tossed the guard on my cheap portable I use for flooring a general purpose long ago. Then again it was junk.I personally think the whirlwind type technology would be a great asset to other tools in the shop like the bandsaw, mitersaw, etc. I don’t worry so much about myself but with a small child at home it would give a small piece of mind and something I might consider paying for at some point.

thewoodwhisperer

on 02/04/2011 at 09:39 AM

For those who might be interested, here are a few comments from David Butler, Whirlwinds inventor:Hello woodworkers, I hope this message will clear up some points regarding Whirlwind Tool safety. I do not have, and likely never will have, any hardware to sell. Instead I hope to get the machinery manufacturers interested in Whirlwind as a win-win and I now have five operational prototypes and each new one is an improvement over the previous versions with still more designs cued up here in the shop. Of course the manufacturers will probably not move until my patents issue, but we are getting closer each day.My original design goal was to develop a user-controlled and multi-tiered hazard-avoidance system approach with a suitable balance of end-user cost vs.. safety features benefit for the various table saw stakeholders ranging from the machinery manufacturers and retailers to the wide spectrum of table saw operators from the novice to the most advanced users. I hope also to curtail some of the table saw litigation that we see by establishing identifiable responsibility for most table saw related injuries, which I believe is to the benefit of all. To that end I now have five operational prototypes with additional models under development.This particular table saw hazard avoidance concept is designed to offer hazard protection through a series of FIVE simple steps:First, the operator must easily and conveniently make personal safety-related decisions prior to operation of the saw, by first choosing to use, partially use or to override and even completely remove the hazard avoidance system with the use of a keyed switch. Second, if the saw is operated in safe-mode, the operator must quickly and simply acknowledge that safety checks have been completed before each and every start of the machine or the saw will not start. This is not an aircraft-pilot-like pre-flight checklist; instead it is whatever the operator wants it to be ? or not to be. The point is that once the operator pushes the ARM button and arms the flesh-sensing and brake to start the saw, (s)he owns the safety responsibility for the following operation. If there is a resulting injury, there is highly unlikely to be litigation blaming the manufacturer of the saw.Third, through electronic flesh-sensing, an extra margin of safety is provided the saw operator by non-destructive blade braking if the operator?s hands enter the ?danger zone? which should always be avoided.Fourth, each emergency braking event serves as a learning experience and a warning to novice saw operators that they have crossed into dangerous proximity of the saw blade and must rethink their operating practices to insure their continued personal safety.Fifth, if the blade-enclosure hazard avoidance system is used, the dangerous, long-feared, and unpredictable table saw ?kick-back? phenomenon is eliminated. Each time the saw is stopped, either through a normal stop or a flesh sensing emergency stop, the saw will revert to the amber light safe condition. The emergency flesh sensing stop is completely non-destructive. Neither the blade, nor the circuitry, nor the saw are damaged during the stop and the operator may simply correct the dangerous condition, rearm the flesh sensing brake circuit and resume sawing. Think safety twice, cut once.David

Alan

on 02/04/2011 at 09:47 AM

What is ironic – what started all this was a guy filing a lawsuit when he was using the saw improperly. It is doubtful that even if multiple technologies were available that he would have purchased or used them. The government uses it to argue “safety” reduces health care costs so we all pay more for products to prevent “one” serious accident. Insurance companies use it to keep insurance costs down and sell more insurance. Every day legislation is passed prevent fires, accidents, etc. which adds to the cost of products.Having said all that, I am a Sawstop owner. I wanted to upgrade my saw and as I am getting older felt the need to work more safely and appreciated a US company doing some needed innovation.Think of it this way – it keeps lots of lawyers, and government workers employed….It remains to be seen if the costs are sustainable for the average American in an increasingly global economy!

Christopheralan

on 02/04/2011 at 09:48 AM

Hey Marc,Being the capitalist I am I love some competition and innovation in the market place. Dewalt copied Festool on the track saw. Good. (When are they gonna make a Domino??) Bosch followed Porter-Cable on routers. Good. Competition is necessary to weed out inferior or poorly made products. It makes those products and for that matter, people strive to be better. Whether a veggie-saw is mandated by law or otherwise is really inconsequential to me. I don?t care that much. I view shop and tool safety the same way I view driving my car. Of course I use safety glasses, respirator, and ear muffs (a.k.a. seat belt, anti-lock brakes, and airbag). I use push blocks, push sticks, and feather boards (good wipers, good tires, and good mirrors). I never free hand on the table saw (drive with my eyes closed), and I always try to work safely (no texting while driving). On a vehicle, most of these devises are required by law. We have become used to having these as a part of our vehicles and we all assume that they will work as intended. I am not sure how these devises have affected our driving habits, but I know that for me, I feel safer when I commute. I don?t think most people intentionally drive more dangerously because they have a safer car. I also don?t think that having a vegetarian saw would cause someone to work sloppier, just because it doesn?t eat meat. Now, I wonder what would happen if I removed all safety devices from my car. No seat belt. No air bag. No anti-lock brakes. How would that affect my driving? More than likely, I would slow down, drive more defensibly, and pay more attention. I would anticipate what other drivers were doing. I would watch road conditions and the weather more intently. Now instead of disabling or removing these devises, how about I just assume that they won?t work, and drive safer. No different than a veggie-saw. Has one ever failed? Not that I know of. If I ever get one, by law or otherwise, I am gonna try awful hard not be the one it fails on. I will never assume it will work right. I will continue to work safely, use common sense and no do stupid things to separate me from my digits. My 2 cents.

Dyami

on 02/04/2011 at 09:49 AM

Marc,Let me begin by saying that I have witnessed my friend cutting off 2 fingers on the table saw from about 3 foot away. I fully appreciate and value SawStop technology & it will be the cabinet saw I get when I upgrade.That said I do not approve of SawStop recent lobbying & I certainly do not believe that Ryobi should be liable for anything in That horrble accident in Boston. Using a table saw with no fence or guide is asking to get hurt. It is not Ryobi’s fault that No one instructed him how to use the saw.To get to the point of SawStop vs Whirlwind, I vote SawStop. As a skeptic I don’t trust Wirlwind, and will not until I see 3rd party testing on an actual production model. Assuming it does test true, Sawstop is still better, for how many cuts do you Have to make with the guard off?

Garth

on 02/04/2011 at 09:53 AM

The applications that come to mind for this technology are first the schools with there very limited budgets. They can upgrade existing equipment AND get a safety training tool, teaching situational awareness. You may be more aware of the blade because you have to pay for its replacement (with Sawstop) but students don’t think this way.The mobile woodworker is not dragging his cabinet saw to the jobsite so Sawstop is not being used in most building construction situations, which I believe is a more dangerous environment than the controlled conditions of the cabinet shop.This situation reminds me of Beta vs VHS; Sawstop started the technology, someone else will bring it to the masses. Beta was used in the high end professional video field but the consumers all own VHS.

MikeM

on 02/04/2011 at 10:00 AM

I saw this technology posted on another forum. There are some definite drawbacks to this design as to compared to the saw stop design. First, it only works well on direct drive table saws. While it does work on belt driven saws, it takes a full second to stop the spinning blade. A lot can happen in that second. Also, this is a good reminder that the saw stop technology is not perfect and it is still possible to get serious injury, such as falling into the spinning blade.I have also seen where users of saw stops who have once used safe table saw practices do stuff that many would be consider unsafe such as not using push sticks for narrow cuts.

PickeringMike

on 02/04/2011 at 10:08 AM

This is reminding me Micro-Channel Architecture. IBM developed Micro-Channel for PC’s. Remember They wanted everyone to pay heavy licensing fee for use. It was superior to ISA channel, but no one would pay for it. Instead, PCI channel technology was invented by Intel and released it to public domain and MCA disappeared into almost forgotten history.Those who forget our past are doomed to repeat it

Tadd

on 02/04/2011 at 12:31 PM

As a patent attorney, I like to see the system work as it is intended. By explaining his invention to the world, Stephen Gass allowed others to continue innovating and better the safety features of our woodworking equipment. I think the competition was an eventuality regardless of the law suits, but the lawsuits may be some additional motivation for the equipment manufacturers. My hope is that in 10 years it will be near impossilbe to hurt yourself on any woodworking tool — that will make this hobby even that more enjoyable.

MikeD

on 02/04/2011 at 12:51 PM

How will they ever protect us from chisels?

Terry Anderson

on 02/04/2011 at 12:59 PM

What I need is a chisel-stop.

Jen

on 02/04/2011 at 02:16 PM

As I once commented on another forum:>Still, there is one thing in the debate about the cost of licensing>SawStop’s patents that’s been bothering me ever since I looked it up.>US Patent #3785230, filed Nov 8, 1972. With such well-described prior>art, the scope of SawStop’s patent is heavily restricted, and any>company that wanted to make a similar system could invent their own>system and market it without paying SawStop a dime. To be a bit more specific, SawStop’s key innovations are the use of an aluminum honeycomb for the blade stop mechanism, and the use of the blade’s own inertia to retract it below table level. Their capacitive sensor is an industry standard, pretty much the same technology as used in the iPod or in a Synaptics touchpad, and the idea of using it to stop a blade, potentially by shoving a stop block into that blade, was quite well described in that (expired) patent that I linked.It’s possible, for example, for a system to be devised that directly retracts the blade mechanism, perhaps using springs or compressed gas, upon blade contact detection, while simply disconnecting the power and letting it spin down at normal speed. Completely non-destructive to the blade, and the acceleration required to match SawStop’s safety is achievable.

Markf

on 02/04/2011 at 02:26 PM

I recently bought my first table saw and it is a Sawstop. Bought it mostly it’s safety feature but the reviews I read said it was a very good table saw. I could afford the technology at the time but how many people are there that can’t and so take the risk? Much like the governments intervention on airbags in cars, (does anyone remember what airbags used to cost as an option on those car manufacturers that offered it?) If it becomes mandatory, manufacturers will find other flesh saving technology and the prices will go down from what Sawstop gets away with charging today. Although I’m sure the availability of low priced table saws will also diminish. My biggest question is where will it stop? Table saws, band saws, routers, chain saws? The list is endless…

Wilbur Pan

on 02/04/2011 at 03:07 PM

The problem with this sort of discussion is that there are two agendas involved here. The first is the one that has been alluded to by some of the comments so far — that government mandates have no business in our shops. And if that is the issue, that’s fine. We all have our own feelings about that.But if the issue is whether a tablesaw without SawStop technology if the operator is aware of his responsibility is just as safe compared to a SawStop tablesaw, that is just flat out wrong. This approach to safety would never fly in any field where safety is a priority. Think of airline pilots, operating rooms, or, to take an example from my day job, physicians ordering chemotherapy — they all have redundant safety mechanisms to catch all the errors that might happen, despite the fact that pilots, surgeons, and pediatric oncologists like myself are vigilant all day long. These environments are very much like the environment where a woodworker is using a tablesaw. Accidents are very infrequent, but when they happen, the results can be catastrophic.The model of safe practices that we use is called the “Swiss Cheese” model. The concept is that there are one or more safety measures in place to prevent an accident from happening. For a tablesaw there’s the splitter, blade guard, proper alignment of the fence, and, yes, “responsibility”. But what is inherent in each one of these safety measure is that there are holes in each one of them. The splitter might be not thick enough for the circumstance, the blade guard might be removed, the fence might slip out of alignment, and the woodworker becomes distracted for just a second. Many times the holes in one layer will be blocked by one of the other layers. But if the holes all line up, an accident occurs.In none of the fields I mentioned above do we solely rely on “individual responsibility” to provide the desired margin of safety, simply because it doesn’t work. There are holes in that layer of cheese, regardless of how vigilant we all are. That’s why there are backup plans. The SawStop mechanism provides your plan B if for some reason, a slip occurs despite the fact that you were being as responsible as you could. Those slips can and will happen, and the damage can be very great if and when it does.So if you don’t want to have a SawStop in your shop because of your feelings of government intervention, that’s fine. But one cannot say that “responsibility” alone will provide the same safety margin that a SawStop provides. Again, that attitude is flat out wrong. Otherwise, pilots would not have their checklists, surgeons would not do an instrument count after an operations, and no one would bother to recheck my chemotherapy orders for my patients.

David

on 02/04/2011 at 03:53 PM

old shop smith technology, proved to be cumbersome

AaronC

on 02/04/2011 at 05:08 PM

It would be great if every saw out there had some type of safety stop on it. But lets let manufacturers decide to do that on their own because its best for their business, not because big brother told them too.

TomB

on 02/04/2011 at 05:29 PM

SawStop killer? not likely, we still haven’t seen a better mousetrap yet. The proximity sensor is a nice idea, but can’t touch SS overall design. people won’t tolerate a higher rate of false positives, destructive or not. it’s also had to compete with a perfect save record. I think the solution Gass should take is to say that the tech license is off the table, and then initiate a trade-in program. give discounts to people that trade in their existing saws. Then do something the reward their initial customers. Their margins will decrease, but it’ll be made up with volume.

Jerry S

on 02/04/2011 at 05:59 PM

Well, plenty has been said. Don’t think I can really add much to the conversation. But I will jump in with my brief opinion. First, I think the whirlwind is very interesting technology. It has potential, but a very long road ahead. Second, I don’t think SS is shooting itself in the foot. I’m sure Gass knew there whould be (and is) competition. SawStop is an excellent product. Right now they have a superior product, and can demand the price they want. (and probably banking it to handle the lean years after more competion is out there.) The price will come down once there are other choices out there…just like the rest of the comercial world. The Fein Multimaster was very highly priced…now you can get a “knock-off” for pennies in comparison. And Fein dropped their price.I am sure there are a bunch of prototypes employing alternate solutions to the safety issues on a table saw. Especially after the ruling in that case. I think this will be an exciting decade for the power tool industry.(Interesting that there is such a resurgence back to hand tools. I just bought my third handplane…not really looking at much in the power side of woodworking. Next on my list is a dovetail saw.)

michael

on 02/04/2011 at 06:33 PM

people its as simple as this, dont be stupid and cut your finger off. lets face it it hurts and makes us woodworkers look bad. and saw accidents can be fixed by shop safty, regulary cleeaning and tuning ones saw and my favorite brains thats all i got to say

Christopher S.

on 02/04/2011 at 09:28 PM

I’m a Wood Shop teacher and have 2 Saw Stop industrial cabinet saws in my shop. The value of these saws and its technology is tremendous. I have in the past had a Delta Unisaw that I loved but when it came to my students using it made me a nervous wreck!I don’t take for granted the value of proper work techniques when working with the table saw and I teach my students to have the same respect for what it can do.I make it a point to discuss the system and its capabilities but inform my students that I have Know Idea if it works because I have never needed to have had one trigger. (EVER!)My wife has even told me that I’m even no longer grinding my teeth at night. (Not kidding)I understand the debate about the strength of the Saw Stop patent and the Pros and Cons of the government poking their noses into the mix but I will tell you that if the system prevents one of my Young Lady’s or Gentlemen from being maimed for life I’d pay for it out of my own pocket.I don’t view the saw its self to be outstanding over other saws on the market but it is well built and definitely industrial quality.I welcome new technology and innovations and hope that the garage inventors and engineers will continue to develop safer tools so I can keep sleeping well at night.Thanks!

nateswoodworks

on 02/04/2011 at 09:31 PM

I am interested for sure. The biggest bonus or this version of skin detection is it could retrofit to older saws with little effort and I hope that is one road I hope they take. That being said I am one who never uses the blade guard but I do Hve two kids that will one day be old enought to learn how to use the TS, I will obviously teach them the safety rules and I never want to raise dumb kids who depend on gimics to keep them safe but I also will want to protect them from a mishap and that is where this comes in.Nate

medfloat

on 02/05/2011 at 12:19 AM

Table saw safety starts and ends with the user. That user must be able decide if the additional safety features (i.e. SawStop) are necessary and/or affordable. To say the technology is useless is stubborn and nieve. It works, I have witnessed it in a school and was impressed. Do I have it? No because I cannot afford it. Do I want it? Yes but I cannot afford it. Having said that, I do not believe the Government should dictate the industry safety standards of flesh detecting technology. The industry took care of that itself and will compete for newer, better and more cost effective products. Will SawStop shoot itself in the foot? Only if they rely in their product as is and not improve upon it. If this Whirlwind technology can be made to work without the guard and with a dado stack then SawStop would be forced to make improvements to survive. Nothing is safer than a well educated, patient, alert woodworker in the shop. Let’s get back to focusing on that and individual responsiblity.

Kerry K

on 02/05/2011 at 12:40 AM

This whirlwind tech is interesting as is the SS. Whether one is better than the other is obviiously highly debateable as is whether the government should be mandating what we use or not.My beef has more to do with the seemingly large price premium for the current tech (SS) on the market. I was recently at a local shop that sells these saws as well as many others. I looked at the SS they had there as well as the second most expensive saw they had (it was a Powermatic) the price difference was huge. the SS was $3900 while the Powermatic was $2700. $1200 is a huge difference in price no matter how you wish to look at it!I looked at both more out of curiousity than any serious thought of buying either one as they are both leagues out of my affordable price range. I also simply don’t have room for a full blown cabinet saw. But what got me was that while both appeared extremely well built as far as fit and finish the Powermatic was still the better purchase in my mind… and here’s why.The PM had a larger table surface and full 90 someodd inch fence, the SS was only 50 something. The main table (no extensions) was larger in both directions by several inches on the PM also. The PM had a larger motor by a full horse as well. Seems like you get alot more for your money with the PM. That being said I know that some would argue that you don’t need those things, plus you get the added “peace of mind” with the flesh detection tech of the SS. That’s true… to an extent, but why does this “peace of mind” cost $1200 more and give you a less powerful and smaller saw? If they were the same in all regards except the flesh detection bit then I could understand it better. As it stood though it seems that it’s price gouging on a fairly grand scale. The SS ads leave a bad taste in my mouth as well. They seem geared to make you believe that if you don’t use their saw your other brand will one day sneak into your bedroom while you’re sleeping and cut you into sushi. I mean really, couldn’t they have taken a higher road than that? Compare features, power, ease of use and adjustability, etc. instead. Do I hate the SS saw? Not really. I believe the tech is wonderful in itself. I’m glad it exists and gives people a choice to have it or not. Do I dislike it’s inventor? There I would have to say yes. The man took a low road with his marketing of the saw and efforts to force it into everyone’s homes and businesses. That rubs me the wrong way and makes him seem more like one of those slimey lawyers who go after people like the idiot with the ryobi incident (I won’t call it an accident as what he did was downright stupid) to get them to sue companies just to make a buck.After saying all that I must add that if people buy a SS after seeing the “hot dog” videos and such thinking they will be completely safe I feel I should say that I have seen evidence to the contrary. While I was looking at these saws a gentleman had come in to get a new brake for his SS. He’d tripped it with his hand. That trip had cost him 3 stitches! Yes you read it correct. I talked to him a little to find out the story behind it. Basically he was making repetive cuts on the saw and his mind wandered a moment because of the boredom (sound famaliar to anyone out there?). When that happened his hand drifted over a little to far and into the path of the blade and bam! The saw did what it was supposed to but not before the blade managed to cut clear to the bone on his right hand index finger. Just goes to show that those who think the tech will keep them from all harm are decieving themselves and that it’s not an excuse to be sloppy with your safety pratices. He also said that while he was glad he had the SS, as it obviously could’ve been much worse, he thought that it would’ve only caused a small cut (i.e something you could stick a band-aid on and be done with it). That to me is a product of SS’s adverts also (use our saw and nothing can happen to you).I strongly believe that other forms of this tech will begin to surface in the next few years and that will be a good thing as it will not only improve upon what is available now but also give people more choices as to which one they want to use (whether or not the government forces it on us or not). That will drive down prices eventually and at that point you could at least make a buying choice based on other things such as size, power, etc. and not just whether it will keep your hands and fingers from being sliced off.Having said all that and sounding like I have a vendetta against SS and want to see them go out of business or something I should add that I would buy a SS myself if I had the room for a large tablesaw and could afford one. I just don’t agree with their advertising strategies and prices. The prices I can somewhat swallow at least as they do have a monoply at the moment. I sincerly hope to see that change though.

Jim Lynde

on 02/05/2011 at 01:26 AM

I am a retired contractor here in Los Angeles, CA (USA)Years ago, I used to purchase, domestic and imported, hardwood lumber and paneling from a company here that had a home-made saw set-upsimilar to what you describe.They would place the boards or panel flat on the table and the travelingtable saw underneath would slide on the rails and make the cut.Made for a very safe cut. That is the only one I have seen or heard ofuntil I read your description.

Mike

on 02/05/2011 at 07:00 AM

I am a Saw Stop owner, and I do have some thoughts on this subject. I am a conservative person, and I generally believe that the less government intrusion the better. I think it certainly applies here, and the government probably has no business telling saw owners that the only saw they can buy will be one with these safety features. We are all adults, and we make decisions every day that could impact the rest of our lives. I personally picked the Saw Stop because I have a young son and I want to be able to teach him how to work with wood. I am not willing to put my son in any greater danger than necessary. Sure, I have a band saw, I have a router table, and I know quite well that I could loose a finger just as easily. I can only do what is possible, including using my Saw Stop to stay safe. Nothing is absolute, and I know that whether I am teaching my son or doing it myself, I still need to practice basic safety techniques on all my equipment. As a final word about Saw Stop, I am very happy with the saw itself. It is a high quality tool and the fact that it has these safety features does not make it any less precise than any other saws. I have not tripped the sensor as of yet because I am careful. I don’t treat the safety feature as a way for me to let down my guard. If nothing else, I don’t really want to find out if it will work using my finger, and I don’t want to have to go buy a new blade either!

Vic Hubbard

on 02/05/2011 at 11:21 AM

I believe it comes down to our individual feelings of how much government intervention is a good thing. Personally, I get OSHA requirements for job sites, etc. But, I have a hard time when the government starts getting into the private sector. Skin sensing technology is a must in a school environment if I’m employ workers in a production shop. But, what I do in my own private shop, should be left up to my discretion. But, again, that is my individual feelings on the matter. If the insurance industries want to charge me more for having less safety points in my shop, I get that. But, that would be more of a market transformational edict that I would be OK with. I say let the market decide. I definitely feel the market as a whole is hearing loud and clear that this technology is a good thing and, if left alone, competition will bring on more and more alternatives at competitive pricing.

Peter

on 02/05/2011 at 11:48 AM

The Whirlwind looks very interesting.I would definitely pick one up if they came out with one for a Steel City 3hp Table Saw. I am curious as to the mechanism they use to stop the blade. It must be some kind of caliper system like disc brakes on a car.Peter

Theater Guy

on 02/05/2011 at 01:52 PM

As the technical director of a school theater, I think SS or other flesh-detecting technologies are a must. Our school can’t afford a new saw with such safety measures, which means that if I need five sheets of plywood ripped in half to build a set, I have to do it myself — I can’t use the TS as a teaching tool and the kids miss out on the opportunity to learn a crucial part of scenic construction (not to mention the extra work for me). Having more options for flesh-detecting safety devices would most certainly bring prices into a range that my school could manage.

Alan M

on 02/05/2011 at 02:02 PM

hi all . from my understanding this has to be wired into the motor and act like an elictronic brake . this is done by forceing the motor to turn one way when it is turning it the other. i feel this could be bad for the life of the motor but it is better than no hand. i would consider one of these for my saw as a after market feature if it wasnt to dear.

Tom Collins

on 02/05/2011 at 10:57 PM

Competition is great. It will improve the technology and lower the price. I hope to see a system on the market that can be retrofitted to existing saws at a reasonable price. Sawstop was a great first step, but there is a lot of room for improvement. As more people enter the market I hope to see further advancements without the huge price tag.

Jeremy

on 02/06/2011 at 04:01 AM

I think all the comments around the negative impact of having to replace parts if what ever flesh detecting technology is activated on your saw is that it will only happen if it has stopped you having an accident and more importantly stopped you have something removed that there is no replacement part for, namely a finger, hand or at the very least a bad disfiguring scar.Whatever technology you choose I think the cost of any re-build that may be required is a small price to pay for a keeping yourself or a member of your staff or family intact.

Geir

on 02/06/2011 at 09:30 AM

I think these “technologies” are attacking the problem from the wrong end.Let me first say that I am sure the SawStop is a fine saw, no doubt about that.When I was a chemical health and safety professional our priorities when dealling with a potential danger was 1-substitute, 2-separate, 3-personal protective equipment. The SS-technology can be said to be on level three here. Going straight to 3 when trying to solve a safety issue is what I mean by attacking the problem from the wrong end.If we apply this principle to table saws the first thing you do is substitute the TS for a bandsaw as much as you can. No 2 separate means to separate the spinning blade from your fingers. A push stick or cross-cut sled is a way of 2-separating. Another say is with European saws with sliding tables.So a lot can be done before flesh-sensing, which at best is a very last line of defence.

Ron Y

on 02/06/2011 at 10:26 AM

Even with the saw stop or similar technology, we still need to practice safe use of our tools. If it becomes a requirement, others will try to develope technologies to do the same thing, Thus possibly hurting saw stops business, as they would not be the only ones out there.

Tyler C

on 02/06/2011 at 03:29 PM

I am a little confused by the fact that so many people get put off by the price of SS. You can purchase a 3hp professional Sawstop with 52″ rails for almost the same price as a Delta Unisaw with the same rails and fence. The Sawstop is a great saw, I have used one for the last 2 years and have no complaints. I know that I am just as safe with it as I am with my old Delta contractor saw. I think the sawstop mechanism is an added bonus because no matter how safe you are accidents happen. Push blocks and sticks can break or slip. People can trip over their own two feet. I am happy to see that their are others out there trying to make their own safety devices but please stop complaining that Sawstop is trying to infringe on your hobby or profession.

Alan M

on 02/06/2011 at 03:33 PM

if the saw stop technology only worked when you flesh was being cut then i would have no problem replacing parts. the problem is that i have read on several forums about people cutting spalted wood and wet wood etc that have triggered the technology , destroying the blade

Brad L

on 02/07/2011 at 10:27 AM

Product evolution is an interesting cycle. If Saw Stop was to just sit on it?s design, then yes they are going to see the beginning of the end. Just like a car manufacturer, if they never changed the designs to better the product, then we would still be driving Model Fords. I personally think that the innovation that Saw Stop created is a good one. However, I also believe that they are looking a other ways to stop a blade and not destroy it. The real question here will be how the current saw manufacturers are going to react. Let?s face it, they blew it when the inventor of saw stop approached them in the first place.As far as government intervention, I hope not! Knowing how they take on issues that they don?t understand, we might end up with Anti-Locking saw blades! Or better yet, they will include it in the next Health Care reform.Happy sawing!! I?ve truly enjoyed reading this thread.

Dave

on 02/07/2011 at 12:56 PM

When will the government realize that they can’t protect every individual from every possible misfortune, and more importantly, that it’s not their job to do so? People must be allowed, maybe even forced, to take a certain level of personal responsibility otherwise we risk even more complacency as people learn to depend on Big Brother to do everything for them.

Scott

on 02/07/2011 at 02:10 PM

I cut my right hand on the same saw that won the lawsuit. Did I sue, no! Why? It was user error!!! I was lucky enough to have my two fingers reattached. I was young, just starting to get into woodworking. The saw was within my meager budget at the time. I was trying to resaw a small board, the saw bound and bounced, sending my hand into the blade. It ruined a perfectly good afternoon. lol My mistake was not using a zero clearance insert. Which as a young woodworker I knew nothing about. I now have a collection of inserts. In my opinion using Saw Stop saws may be safer, but you may get more relaxed around the blade, thus making it dangerous. I have since upgraded ALL of my light, inexpensive tools. I now have Delta hybrid saw. You might think that after such a horrific ordeal I would have purchased a SS saw. It is not the saw that makes woodworking safer, it is the user. I have studied more, practiced and watched masters like Norm, Marc, and David. There is nothing more important than safety. But lets be realistic if you make a mistake around your tools you should get hurt. How else are you going to learn?!

BarryO

on 02/07/2011 at 09:22 PM

Mike,You forgot the finish of the Microchannel Architecture story. Yea, the PC industry went with PCI. But that was no skin off IBM’s nose, since they held most of the fundamental patents on computer bus technologies, no matter how it was implemented. IBM just set back, let the rest of the industry adopt PCI, and then they went around the industry collecting many million$ in licensing fees on those using those IBM patents in their PCI products.So the same here. Those Whirlwind videos have been out for over a year. Has anyone implemented the system? Nope. Wonder why? Well for one, go read the Gass patents. Some claims are broad enough that there’s a good chance that the Whirlwind scheme infringes on them. As it stands now, I doubt this will ever see the light of day. Maybe that would change someday, if the Gass patents actually were written into an industry (ANSI) standard or government regulation, which would require him to license them to all interested parties at a reasonable rate. But until that happens, he can do with them whatever he wants, including keeping them for himself. Given the indications that the power tool manufacturers seemed to have conspired amongst themselves to rebuff Gass as a group (i.e., Big TIme antitrust violation), I wish him well. In any case, I think more and more, the “outside world” of ordinary, non-woodworker, people sitting on juries will drive change, rather than gov’t regs.. While we can sit here in our little insular environment and talk about “personal responsibility” and “how else are you going to learn if you don’t lose a body part when you make a mistake”, the Average Joe and Jane are gonna reaction “what!? table saws amputate 3000 fingers every year, and there’s this gizmo that could reduce that to zero, but manufacturers couldn’t be bothered with it?. Can you say ‘Ford Pinto’?”. One way or another, change is coming.

on 02/07/2011 at 10:38 PM

The introduction of other flesh detecting technology is great. It only helps us the consumer. The more competition, equals lower price. But after watching the whirwind video for a few seconds i new I would never use the thing. I know when you watch these guys that do educational videos they all saw that the table saw guard is removed for teaching purposes. But my question is how many of you guys use these. In my case its now a stupidity thing. I simply feel safer without them. I get nrvous when I cant see what im doing. That is why I dont use my guard. So even though the whirwind doesnt ruin the blade when it stops it if I were going for the technology, I would still lean towards the saw stop

jHop

on 02/08/2011 at 10:30 PM

there are good sides and bad sides to every argument. And every invention.The good side of both ideas is that you still keep your fingers. While most of us are careful, and do not always need reminding about fingers and thumbs (Thanks, Matt), there are going to be moments when something happens that you need that protection. That’s why they are called ‘accidents.’The bad side: we become so dependent on other technology to do our thinking and safety for us, we become little more than automatons, wearing whatever color we are told to, or buying one colored product over another.Remember the outrage over the McDonald’s lawsuits? The end result: warning labels on pretty much everything. Like you can’t tell the cup is hot just by feeling it, but because there’s no warning not to do something not recommended, you get rewarded financially. There are now warning labels in microprint, because everybody is terrified of being sued due to a lack of common sense.Will this prevent flesh detection technology from blossoming? Hardly. Competition is good for everybody. One product gets ‘stale,’ and you get complacent. Not having seen the Whirlwind in action (yet), I can’t say my opinion of the technology, but improvements breed more improvements.I agree with the issues regarding SawStop, in the destruction of equipment to save your limbs. Namely, it’s breeding a mentality of using the cheapest approach to a happy end result. I see this attitude around a lot, in that (in my opinion) we have entered a society where it is better to be disposable than maintain a quality product. Take car parts: sixty years ago, cars were built to last for a long time, but now parts are practically engineered for a break-down time.This does, however, present us with an opportunity that we should consider seriously. This allows us the opportunity to upgrade individual components, instead of the whole product. We rebuild old tools, refurbishing them and using new technology to make them better. Perhaps the next level of flesh detection technology will be a retrofit, so I can plug the detection unit into my Delta contractor saw, the Delta Unisaw my Uncle used in Virginia, or the Powermatic saw my cousin uses now. Maybe it will even be as common as replacing the blade, tailoring it for the type of cut you want to make.Will this new product derail SawStop’s attempt to ram legislation through the government? Only time will tell. I personally think that the government will pass legislation on whatever they want, whether or not it is in the best interest of the informed user, because they think they are doing what’s best for the common majority. Having kids who are accident prone, I’m grateful that the option is there. Having kids, I don’t have the budget to just get these options when I want.It may be that SawStop is pushing too hard to have the legislation passed, that all the companies use flesh detection technology. I’m personally thrilled that this is an option. I might disagree that my version of a solution is not what someone else’s version of a solution is. I don’t think that every saw should be a SawStop, but I think every manufacturer should offer a model or three that have a variation of this technology. Mandating it by the government is not the best option. But I’m always thrilled for progress. Corporate measures, government mandates, common sense, whatever. If it makes my life better, I’m thrilled with it. Remember, though, as technology improves some things, other things need to be developed as well.

Chet

on 02/08/2011 at 11:05 PM

Hey Marc,You know me, I’m a big SawStop proponent. I think the SawStop cabinet saw is the best saw out there with or without the brake feature. I think it has done great things for the industry. Delta was forced to do its first redesign on the UniSaw in over 40 years because it was getting outsold by SawStop. The WhirlWind seems to be a direct response to SawStop. My opinion it is a win/win/win for us woodworkers. I?m very happy to see additional technology come out. If SawStop needs to react to the change in the market they will, or they will get out competed by those who do, again it?s a win for us woodworkers. I do think Whirlwind has set itself up for failure in the way they have applied for their patent. By including the dust collection technology in the same patent application as their flesh sensing technology, I don?t think it can be granted to them. (Now I admit I?m no patent attorney) Their sensing technology may be unique. (Although, I?m not sure it is, if you see the electric safety fence on any modern punch press machine.) Their dust collection is definitely not unique.They claim they are using the spinning blade?s wind plus a shop vac to suck up dust. Thus the Whirlwind name. I?ve seen that exact method used several times in commercially available as well as shop designed table saw fixtures. Shopnotes had a design that claimed to do EXACTLY that very thing with a shop-made table saw dust collector close to ten years ago.I think that if Whirlwind wants to win their patent, they are going to have to drop the idea that their dust collection is revolutionary and just try to win the patent on a new use for electric sensing technology. Again, I could be wrong. I?m not a patent attorney. Maybe one of your viewers/readers is and can shed more light on this, but that was the first thing that went through my head when I read their patent application. Which may explain why they haven?t been granted the patent yet even though the website states that they expected the patents to be in place by now.

herb fellows

on 02/09/2011 at 11:23 AM

Because we are not privy to the conversations that went on between Gass and the companies, nobody will ever truly know who the ‘villain’ was here. It could have easily been either side, depending on exactly what was said and done.Steve had better get ready for some competition though, it was inevitable that it would happen.Bottom line, I agree with Chet above; any competition helps woodworkers.If you put aside intentions and focus on results, we will all be winners here.

herb fellows

on 02/09/2011 at 11:38 AM

I don’t think people who can afford one or the other are put off by the price, but I’m guessing (purely a guess, I don’t know if figures are available or what they would say if they were) at least 60% of table saws are in the $100-$300 category, and these people cannot afford 2k for a saw.Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment;If it is only on expensive saws, then we are saying only ‘wealthy’ people deserve to be protected.If the government mandates it, then everybody is ‘equal’, ar least as far as how valuable their hands are considered. Where does equality end and government interference begin?

Walnut Weasel

on 02/09/2011 at 11:43 AM

I am no fan of government regulations in most cases, including this one. But regardless of if the government steps in or not AND regardless of what happens to the Sawstop makers as a result, we should all be thankful that someone out there had the guts to create and push innovation. Let’s face it, all of the safety measures in the world do not prevent one day’s worth of absentmindedness. Your mind drifts for just a split second and you are left without a finger. In fact I am disheartened that no other large manufacture has not yet stepped up to the plate to make a competitive model. It would drive down the cost of the technology and make us all safer in the process.

herb fellows

on 02/09/2011 at 12:03 PM

While I understand the sentiment, you would not have abs, seatbelts, airbags (need I go on?) if they were not government mandated.Virtually every manufacturer was dragged, kicking and screaming, to institute these safety measures.There has to be a line drawn between government protecting people and interfering.I would draw that line at proven safety techniques.

Jerry S

on 02/09/2011 at 02:05 PM

Just some additional thoughts about this particular case. I think the main reason this lawsuit turned out this way was because of the fact that Ryobi had signed a contract with the sawstop technology…and then allegedly didn’t follow through. So the fact that the contractor didn’t do anything “correct” while using the saw really didn’t matter to this case. It was the fact that they failed to follow through with the contract. If they had, then the saw he was using was suposed to have the flesh-sensing technology on it. I do not think this is, by any stretch, the government wanting to force manufacturers to use a specific safety device. The jury was asked to decide whether or not Ryobi followed through on their contract…they decided no. And because of that “Breach of Contract” the man was awarded some money. Just my 2 cents.

Wayne Cole

on 02/10/2011 at 09:28 AM

The owners of SawStop better call there wyers off AND clarify their advertising and tell the prospective buyers how much it costs to replace the parts when they cut a weiner/finger

Keith

on 02/10/2011 at 09:44 AM

I honestly don’t know why woodworkers are so crazy about not wanting braking systems on a table saw. No one complains about air bags in a car. They certainly make it more expensive and make your steering wheel bulkier as well as use up dashboard space. And to not like it because there is a small amount (1 or 2) folks/companies with this device. The reason being is it was very niche. I think making the saws safer. (how many complained about the addition of riving knives ? And a market will mean competition, and competition will breed better safer products. have one or two means you’re stuck with what you’re given. And personally if Mr. Gass makes a billion dollars from his invention, I don’t care, safer useable tools means more folks able to count to 10 on their hands. Keith

Frank

on 02/10/2011 at 10:44 AM

Sawstop also works for dado stacks. The disadvantage is that you have to remove the blade brake for the single blade and install the dado blade brake-it’s just a thicker brake, but it works just the same. I believe that on their new saws they have incorporated an ability to do this without tools, using some disengaging levers to unlock everything for easier uninstall/reinastall.

Frank

on 02/10/2011 at 11:11 AM

Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

Frank

on 02/10/2011 at 11:13 AM

By the way, how do you like your Delta Hybrid? I have been looking at one and thinking that maybe this should be the first TS I would buy for myself. I first saw it at Woodcraft Raleigh, NC. I’m not sure if they make more than one model of that saw right now.

Frank

on 02/10/2011 at 11:24 AM

In honor of Marc I’m going to try to keep the anti government stuff to a minimum. I have only been woodworking since January of 2009, and the only table saw I have ever used is Sawstop. The shop where do most of my woodworking has a two early models, a contractor saw and a cabinet saw. I realize that I don’t have much experience, but I think the saws themselves are great. I know that the company has made many improvements and upgrades, and I would like someday to use them and see how they work, but even without them I think they make a great saw. The blade brake mechanism I am glad to say I have never had the opportunity to see in action, except on the Sawstop website and on TV. They are more expensive, and it is a personal decision to buy one or not. Some places, like school wood shops or hobby shops where lots of different people are using the machinery, may decide that it is a necessary and affordable purchase for them. The particular hobby shop that I use has a simple policy in place: you use the blade brake, you replace the blade brake and the blade. In the last two years there haven’t been any incidents, but they have had a couple in the past, including one where the hobby shop manager severely injured his fingers, prompting him to purchase on of the saws in the first place. The first and last safety mechanism anyone should be worried about is themselves. Everything else is just a tool in the toolbox which may or may not work effectively. All in all, I think the government should butt out; its role should be limited. If the Sawstop guy is being underhanded in his attempts to get everyone to buy his technology then shame on him, but if the government simply ignored him then it wouldn’t matter anyway. I’m a big believer in the free market. If the people want what Sawstop offers, then the people will buy it, and everyone else will use initiative and innovation and creativity to be able to compete. Maybe somebody should be pushing for tort reform when it comes to liability lawsuits against table saw manufacturers?

Frank

on 02/10/2011 at 11:25 AM

And having said all that I still think the first table saw I buy for my own home shop will be a Delta Hybrid.

Tommyt654

on 02/10/2011 at 11:45 AM

I really have to admire the fact someone has come up with another idea to help save us all from ourselves. The greatest threat to us all is our inability to properly use the tools we have and execute proper safety techniques. All this hulabaloo about Gass and Sawstop is just icing on the cake for a tool thats relatively unproven. He makes wildly unjust claims about his tool line yet it can and will fail eventually (its electrical and computer controlled) yet when you buy one you agree to his terms that he’s held unaccountable for its failure. Gimme a break willya. He’s headed down the path of another finished failed business and taking folks who bought this overpriced taiwanese junk with him. Where will they be in 5-10 yrs when Sawstop is no more and they cannot get parts. I’ll be standing in my door laughing at them while polishing my Unisaw:)

Mike S.

on 02/10/2011 at 01:34 PM

I think that the Whirlwinds biggest potential is as an aftermarket retrofit. How many shop classrooms (in schools that still have shop class) would buy these as opposed to entirely new saws. Whirlwind needes to market these to insurance carriers who will motivate school districts and maybe commercial cabinet shops to use them via reduced premiums. Plus (and I’m making an assumption here) schools and commercial shops probably aren’t using tenoning jigs and cross cut sleds that much. Forget about the government regulation aspect…For any tool manufacturer to not offer the state of the art technology available for me to choose is really insulting, it’s just like in that movie “Tucker” when they said that the major car manufacturers didn’t want to offer safety features like seat belts because they would remind people that you could get into a car accident. It’s my understanding that the Saw Stop inventor tried to pitch the licensing angle to the major manufacturers and they weren’t interested, so he started making his own saws.I think the Saw Stop technology should be the standard moving forward. My wife and I recently watched a live demonstration at Rockler and were very impressed. My wife asked me how much the Freud blade that I used would cost to replace if I did have a mis-hap. I told her that the replacement cartridge and a new blade would probably about $120-$150, which is probably the bottom end of the cost spectrum if I didn’t go to the emergency room but rather the clinic and just got a couple of stitches. The dream injury situation isn’t even realistic because there is little chance of a table saw injury with only one or two stitches! I know of one local cabinet builder shredded his hand when he slipped and “caught himself” by reaching his hand out to a running table saw (I don’t know if he had removed a guard , had a dado set installed etc). The Saw Stop would have helped him save lots of time, pain and money whereas he might not have even bothered with the Whirlwind. Jus tmy thoughts…

Ben

on 02/10/2011 at 05:13 PM

A little back-of-the-napkin here: A 10″, 40T blade spinning at 3450 RPM means that in one second 72,254 teeth will pass any given point (e.g. your finger). At normal speed in 0.125 seconds you have about 9,000 teeth passing your finger. Adjusting that down by half to account for deceleration introduced by the system, you still have 4,500 finger-slicing sawteeth whizzing by in that 0.125 seconds, plenty enough to cause serious traumatic injury.Based on the super-slow motion YouTube videos of SawStop technology, it appears that not even one saw tooth passes through the plane of the finger after the mechanism is tripped. I’d say based on that, this (and any other new technologies) have a very high standard to meet to even be close to competitive.Honestly rather than whining about the cost of SawStop I think as a country and community we should be supporting people who have recognized a big problem, devised a good solution and successfully brought it to market. It takes a huge investment of time and money to start from nothing but an idea and build a successful product line. I feel like the person who undertakes that risk should be rewarded, not the jerks who eventually figure out how to copy/steal by making trivial modifications to it and undercut the cost by shipping production overseas.

SteveR

on 02/10/2011 at 05:16 PM

The obvious advantage of the whirlwind is that it is resettable and non-destructive of the blade or an expensive brake. I like that and don’t like that sawstop is proprietary and I have to buy their saw to get the technology, so bravo for other options. I hope it becomes available.Having said that, if it is made available even on an aftermarket basis, then it becomes like any other safety device. You may use it or remove it. Those who buy it are likely to need it the least, like safe drivers buying Volvos.

Bob Dennison

on 02/10/2011 at 08:22 PM

What I am lobbying for is a Federal Edict that will totally prevent any and alltiny wood splinters from entering my cutaneous appendages.I need monetary support to hire one of those bleeding heart guys to represent me. Just email the money to me !Bob

Sternberg

on 02/11/2011 at 04:51 PM

Saw stop works on the same technology as those touch base lamps. I have several of those, and they do not always work, if your hands are dirty, for example.I would not want to bet my hands on one of those circuits working correctly everytime. I have a paper shredder that uses the same circuit, and it doesn’t work half the time. There is no “failsafe” to this. Failures will occur and they will be catostrophic.

Chris

on 02/12/2011 at 05:44 PM

Ben, your math is wrong. If the blade is spinning at 3450 revolutions per minute, then in one minute 40 x 3450 = 138000 teeth pass by for a 40T blade. Divide by 60 to get the number that pass by in one second, or 2300 teeth. In 0.125 secs, that is 287.5 teeth. Using your estimate of adjusting by 1/2 to account for deceleration, then that is 143.75 teeth.But all that math is irrelevant. The real issue is this: the saw stops in about 1/8 of a second. Can a finger realistically move from the point where the Whirlwind detects it to the blade in that 1/8 second. Under normal circumstances, my guess is probably not. It might be possible if the person was swinging their hand toward the blade at high speed, but then the guard should come into play to help slow it down.There is something also highly appealing about a safety system that actuates BEFORE your hand is actually in harms way. And the design is such that you can periodically test that the electronics and mechanical parts are all working correctly without destroying the blade/brake or putting one’s fingers in actual harm’s way. The real drawback to the Whirlwind is that there are situations where use of a blade guard limits the types of cuts that one can perform. Removal of the guard then offers no protection to the woodworker. At least with the Sawstop, even without a blade guard, there is still some measure of protection. But that protection should not be over-estimated in such situations. It does seem like its effectiveness will depend on how your hand comes in contact the blade. If the blade guard were removed and your hand comes straight down on top at a fast rate, then your hand may remain in contact with the rapidly decelerating blade for the entire time that the blade is retracting. Perhaps not enough to cut off digits, but probably enough to give more than a nick. There is, at least, one anecdotal story above where a guy got cut down to the bone with a Sawstop, so it would appear that it is possible.

Jim

on 02/12/2011 at 07:01 PM

I didn’t think posting that link to Whirlwind would cause this level of reaction. Anyway, honestly I’m all for safety stuff but I have to wonder why SawStop didn’t just make plate that’s welded to the arbor and have the stop slam into that while the blade is dropping? Same thing with the cartridges, it’s a electomagnetic spring, is there some reason it can’t be re tensioned and put a new aluminum block on the end? I mean really. it’s an industrial design that’s been in use for at least 50 years in all kinds of manufacturing. There you go, I just designed the SawStop 2.0 and addressed the main issues (consumable cartridges and wrecked blades) :)I think the answer to why they didn’t is because once you sell a tablesaw, how much business do you get from that customer? Sure maybe a accessory or two but really it’s a one purchase thing. SawStop is setup so you pretty much have to keep buying stuff from them (Cartridges). Also, how many folks bought a couple of cartridges extra right off the bat? How about a dado cartridge too? That’s called value added sales right there. I’ve even read that folks have hotdog parties where they trigger the mechanism to show their friends how it works. All that said, It’d still be on the list of tablesaws to check out if I were buying right now. If the Whirlwind had a retrofit to a TS for $500 or so, I’d really be thinking hard about that. If there were a Grizzly Hybrid with the Whirlwind coming in at $1500 it would give the SawStop at $2200 a definite run for my money.If I were the Whirlwind guy, I’d try to get some accessory maker to buy the device to perfect and market it if he’s not willing or able to do so. Heck, ask Grizzly…Just some random neurons firing…-Jim

Jim

on 02/12/2011 at 08:52 PM

One more thing, I see a lot of folks saying SawStops should be used in schools. I agree, to a point. The local school system purchased several hundred infrared hand sensor type anti-bacterial hand sanitizers last year to put in all the schools. They don’t have the budget to purchase the hand sanitizer refills this year so all those nice, new several thousand dollars worth of infrared sensor hand sanitizing units are sitting in the schools empty and useless. Any idea what will happen when the SawStop is triggered and they don’t have budget for new cartridges and blades? Woodshop is rare enough in the schools and they have trouble getting budgets for wood and glue, how about 10 SawStop cartridges and blades a year? (We all know some kids are just going to trigger it to watch it happen so I’m being generous and saying 10) not to mention the initial outlay of the SawStop saws which is significant. If there is government mandate that they must be used in the schools, the pessimist in me says woodshop will be completely gone in all schools within a very short time. I’m just saying… there are things that have to be thought through.

Bob

on 02/13/2011 at 02:47 AM

First you need a reversible motor. Electric gates are normally equiped with instantly reversbile motors. Electric braking by reversing the motor is known as plug stopping. That is normally used in industrial applications on 3 phase motors. I think it would be very simple to put it to use on a table saw.

Alan M

on 02/13/2011 at 01:57 PM

that a very good idea for the saw stop mark 2.

Frank Kovach

on 02/13/2011 at 09:10 PM

I was one of those who mentioned the Sawstop being good for a school, but I wanted to make it clear that I in no way think there should be a government mandate for it. I just think that if you could afford it, it would be a good choice for that type of environment. And I would hold kids responsible for immature behavior.

Keith

on 02/14/2011 at 12:14 PM

Actually the saw stop is not an electromagnetic spring, it is a heavy duty spring held in place by a high resist fuse wire, when contact is detected a surge of electricty from a capacitor burns the fusewire and the spring is release and the AL block is pushed into the blade, detection happens in milliseconds (around 3-5) not in tenths of a second. if it were in tenths of a second, you’d still be picking up your finger tip from your saw AND replacing a blade and brake. :) As for replacement, perhaps SAWStop could buy back and refurb, but with the burning of a fuse wireI would imagine the circuit is pretty much fried. Keith

Keith

on 02/14/2011 at 12:28 PM

Using resistance to trigger a circuit is not new and this technology while in theory is the same as a touch lamp it is a little different, the resistence level measuring is much more sensitive and detects it much easier. Why your lamp costs less than a saw stop. :) Also most saw stop saves result in a nick of the tissue, in this case dirt and grease and grime are not present after about 45 microns so the saw will see the change in the electrical field and go into action. Will it work 100% of the time ? No all mechanical things fail at some point, they are build by man. But to discourage the devices usefulness because it may someday/somewhere/somehow fail, is crazy. If this were true. Then I would not buy an automobile as a key component may fail and you might lose your life. Nothing is foolproof as fools are too ingenious.Keith

Keith

on 02/14/2011 at 12:36 PM

3-5 milliseconds of detection. Not measured tenths of a second. Also when the device triggers the blade is stopped BEFORE the arbor drops so the idea of ‘following’ the spinning blade down into the saw is very improbable.

Keith

on 02/14/2011 at 12:40 PM

I do not work for SAW STOP, heck I don’t even own one, I have a DW746. But to stop all the guessing and supposition. Take a look at this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLEThis is how it happens, wanna know how many teeth come in contact with the skin? watch and count. And if the government mandates a technology like saw stop of saw stops in schools then I say go for it, public schools are paid for with government money.

Alex

on 02/14/2011 at 01:16 PM

A few musings from a part time professional:I use a Delta contractor saw. It?s a great saw with a horrible blade guard that I don’t like at all. However, the only time that I don’t use it when it is physically not possible to perform the operation without it. The result, no kickback, no cut fingers (nor hotdogs) and reasonable cost. Whenever I perform any operation where the guard cannot be used my first thought is whether there is another machine that I could use instead. If that’s a no go I can often modify the operation or add some auxillary guard to make the operation less hazardous.Regarding competition for Saw Stop just consider. Have you ever read a bad review of the saw itself? I have not. The manufacturer could have put out a saw that relies on safety benefits alone, but choose instead to manufacture a quality product with a great safety feature.When it comes time to replace this saw I will consider the Saw Stop or one that offers the same features.The next time you think to complain about the government mandating table saw safety, turn on the television and see how many woodworking shows are teaching new woodworkers how to work safely? The culture created by the “we only removed the blade for clarity” bunch have had as much with bringing us to where we are as product liability lawyers.Whatever happens, the primary responsibility for safety begins with the woodworker.

Mike S.

on 02/14/2011 at 04:21 PM

As for the cost of replacement cartridges…according to the Rockler store manager that I saw give a Saw Stop demonstration, whenever a cartrdige is used, return it to the manufacturer. Apparently there is information saved in the cartridge and if it is determined that it was a flesh/skin triggered incident they will reimburse you for or replace the catridge (not the blade replacement though). There is a test/bypass mode to allow you to cut wet or pressure treated wood by simply turning a key in the access panel.

Jim

on 02/14/2011 at 08:47 PM

Funny I blow a fuse in my truck and it costs 50 cents to replace it. I still can’t see the reason why it can’t trigger by fuse and have the spring reset by a electromagnetic reset switch. This is still very old technology. Heck, it’s a mousetrap you can’t reset if you really want to think about it that way.And as far as mandating for the schools, see my story above on something simple and cheap like hand sanitizer. I can see some folks saying, must be a cheap school district, nope upper middle of the bunch here in NJ. Most of the high end school districts phased out woodshop, metalshop and automotive classes a long time ago so pretty much the districts that could afford SawStops don’t need them.As far as it being government money, come pay some property taxes in NJ and tell me that again. The schools here are primarily funded by property taxes (highest in the nation). Even when the Federal government mandates something, only sometimes do they pay for part of the initial outlay but upkeep and maintenance is all on the municipalities so the difficulty remains. And for the record, I am not down on SawStop. They make a nice saw regardless of the brake, however it is a first generation product and even if it always works and is a brick, I am just saying it needs to evolve for the technology to be accepted by everyone. That fact that there is this much controversy just shows that fact. I just pointed out a couple of ways off the top of my head to do so and I’m not a mechanical engineer and can see some potential solutions. (Free of charge if anyone from SawStop is reading this) :-) -Jim

Jed

on 02/15/2011 at 08:24 AM

The article and the discussions are a little misrepresentative. It should be noted that Steve Gass had no plans to build saws. He invented the Sawstop technology, and tried to license it to existing commercial manufacturers, and they weren’t interested. While you could say that the problem was that his cost was too high, he did offer them a solution, which he will again if a competitor comes out. At this point, I don’t think anyone knows what the licensing cost of Whirlwind will be to any of the manufacturers, so it’s speculative at best to assume that one technology would dominate over another.

keith

on 02/15/2011 at 07:29 PM

Jim, I hope you didn’t take my comments personal, none of my comments are meant as an attack on the OP. I am merely clearing up some misconceptions surrounding the saw stop. Having been an electrical engineer, I love the tech in this device. However the fuse in question is much different than a car fuse and the timing/amps needed to ‘blow’ the wire are much lower. fast blow _vs_ slow blow fuses. This is the first generation, I would expect to see changes in the next generation devices and hopefully some alternatives. Adoption of these devices means someone will see a market and want it and development will begin, no market, no choices. I live in Md and the taxes here are crazy too, but I think schools are a perfect place for this technology. If they save 1 child from growing up missing or reattached an appendage then more power to them. And I am sure there is special pricing for government/schools, there always is. The way to increase your market share is to get the word out there. what a better way for a principal or school board to make parents feel a little safer for their children. And maybe have some parent let then children attend woodshop in school. And the more that get to experience wood working the more of us there will be. :)

Tom Buhl

on 02/16/2011 at 01:12 AM

Wilbur, your comment made me smile. In my very early days, I worked in a QC capacity. Wish I had taken out a patent on the “it’s ok now, we learned our lesson” dismissive approach. RED FLAG number 1. I didn’t have “your” developed vocabulary, but made my cases as strong as I could. Seems not too many of our fellows here took your perspective to heart. Mostly sharing their previously held stance. Yes, training and individual responsibility come first. But…I sure didn’t like the smell of the infamous lawsuit and SS’s involvement. Have to say that when it comes to workplace safety, the profit motive has historically overridden safety without some very strong outside intervention, be it union or government or populist revolt. Hopefully, if we do get government intervention, it will be crafted to allow for innovation rather than restricting it.Great to see so many people respond, and to do it in primarily healthy manner. Good job of Marc to remind folks to refrain from general harangues of politics and religion.

Alan M

on 02/16/2011 at 05:38 AM

i would imagine the manufacturers would adopt the whirlwind technology first as it is only a bolt on and only needs to be wire in. to put in the saw stop technilogy a complete redesign of the saw would be needed

Keith

on 02/16/2011 at 01:13 PM

Jed, I agree, he did first start out attempting to get presetn manufacturers to apply his device. And they didn’t want to redesign their saws. But maybe just maybe since he has everyone’s attention, manufacturers will be taking a hard look at this type of safety feature. Keith

Jeff M

on 02/16/2011 at 11:16 PM

I am a Cabinetmaking and Building Trades teacher of 19 years and would like to address some of the comments about the SawStop in schools. Starting with Jim’s comment about the budgets and replacing 10 cartridges and blades per year. To that I would simply say that instead of replacing the cartridges, they should consider replacing the instructor. We have had 3 SawStops for 7 years and have set off the break a total of 1 time…. not due to any misuse of the saw or its technology, but simply because we were cutting a piece of treated lumber and didn’t turn off the safety. Kid’s get a bad rap because of the idiots we put in charge of watching them. I don’t know of any kid that would put their hand into a spinning table saw blade hoping that the safety will work and stop the blade just for kicks….knowing all along that they might lose part of their hand and it will definitely cost them a couple hundred bucks to replace the blade and break.As far as the government mandates for this type of safety in the schools….most schools and instructors with any sense will not need them, they’ll see the value in spending a few thousand dollars to keep their kids safe and avoid a million dollar lawsuit. But, I do say that if the government wants to push some of the wasteful stimulus money towards the vocational programs to upgrade to this technology, I would be for it. With a mandate should come assistance for struggling school systems.As far as the saw goes, I have one in my home shop as well simply because it is the best saw available regardless of the safety mechanism.Speaking of the Whirlwind, I really don’t see the value in the system with the safety feature coming from the blade guard. We constantly have to remove the guard to do narrow rips, grooves, dados and other operations that can’t be done with the guard. My students are still safe with the guard removed. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am constantly touching our safety guard when it is on the saw. Is that possible with the Whirlwind??

Jeff M

on 02/16/2011 at 11:31 PM

Just another quick note defending SawStop and the brake cartridge. I may have read this in another post but just wanted to reinforce that SawStop will replace your brake free of charge if you come in contact with the blade. In fact, you are urged to send in your tripped cartridge for a free replacement in the manual.I think if the company was planning on getting rich off of the cartridges they will be starving. They are not set off on a regular basis as some of you have stated above. As I said above…..4 saws for 6 or 7 years and one brake replaced. That’s a long stretch for 69 bucks!!

Greg

on 02/17/2011 at 01:28 AM

I have read a few of the opinions of cabinet saw users. I must agree that safety is paramount; however, it seems strange that this individual in Massachusetts was able to not only obtain the owner of Sawstop, but to also discover the owner was an attorney.I had predicted that the larger organizations would respond to new technology. It is very unlikely that they will stand for a company to walk over them due to a safety discovery.In response to the driving safer if there were no seatbelts and airbags etc. is just a dream. Years ago vehicles without this equipment were driven in the same fashion as they are currently with the safety equipment.When it comes to airbags there is a discrepancy about their benefits. I have responded to many accidents where had the passanger not had their feet on the dashboard thier hiip would have not been dislodged by a 200 mile an hour airbag. The broken arms, burns and brioken noses may not have been an issue if not for the airbag.I got off of the topic a bit, but I feel that this is an attorney who will stop at nothing to make his fortune on the backs of those who fall for his tactics.In reference to the case in Massachusetts the victim was going to sue the business owner (his boss) but he did not have enough money to pay the employee (victim). So once again he went after deep pockets. The portion of this case that was so disturbing was the fact that safety equipment was removed from the saw prior to it’s use. If the SawStop preventive equipment is shut off and the operator cuts himself or herself… who is responsible? I feel there is a discrepancy here. This is another hot coffee in the lap of the customer at McDonalds.I predicted about 2 years ago that a competitive company would find another alternative to this technology. One that would not cause damage to the blade by allowing it to drop into the base of the saw and continue spinning. If the blade is encased and continues to spin in the base of the tool there should be no safety issue, so long as it is fast enough.I am also certain that those who had accidents with equipment were acting in a safe manner and did not wish to end with the negative results. I don’t think their attention was on the cost of a piece of equipment, but the safety for themselves and others around.I do not know the owner of Sawstop; however, I have worked with attorneys whose only wish while defending a victim, or suspect, was to obtain as much money as they could. Note: I did not say earn… I said charge.While in all fields there are good and bad, I am very suspicious when the CEO just happens to be at trial of a poor victim who injured himself. Especially when the benefit is to help his company sell more product. Was there really concern for the operator of the saw? I’m not certain.I will not comment on the law making government as you have requested we not, but I have my feelings on that subject also.I hope the other large companies respond soon with their own version of electronic safety. The patient owned by SawStop, I would think, cannot include all electronics.

Keith

on 02/17/2011 at 09:36 AM

Here is a link to give you an idea how fast milliseconds are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MillisecondJust interesting stuff.

Keith

on 02/17/2011 at 09:39 AM

I like the good hearty diiscussion on this topic. This is the kind of thing that helps ‘get stuff done’ it shows we’re thinking about it. I must admit though, I am rather surprised at some of the reason folks dislike this type of tech in their equipment, and or for Mr Gass. But as with anything we all have our reasons.

Rick

on 02/17/2011 at 11:16 AM

Microsoft disproved that “only the best survive”. What they DID prove is that if you find a way to make your product usable for the vast majority of people, you will succeed.Apple and Linux proved that competition can make good things better, and whoever purchases an industry’s products will decide who survives (all things being equal and management not screwing things up).Laws should only require that companies be honest and play fair. That means fair OPPORTUNITY – not equal OUTCOME.May the chips fall where they may and may we benefit by having the best products to choose from. But most of all, may we all USE OUR HEADS. I’ve cut my finger on a sharp chisel, too. So it’s not just power tools.

Keith

on 02/17/2011 at 11:44 AM

Rick, I agree, competition is a good thing, but before competition there needs to be acceptance. And I completely agree that using our heads is the best method and practicing good safety should be paramount to even the best safety features. However, for those ‘moments’ when we make a bad choice or ‘it’s a simple cut’ even though I’m tired. it will be nice to have backup. We are only human after all. I mostly need a splinter stop. LOL.

Rick

on 02/17/2011 at 01:12 PM

I doubt any of us would debate the backup. My take was purely on the nature of a “SawStop Killer?” title. Again, I doubt few would debate that competition is good.Guess my bottom line is that just because SawStop was first, doesn’t mean it will be best.I saw several references to seat belts, and the like, as safety gear. I didn’t use safety belts until my friend said, “Don’t you love your family enough to help ensure you get home to them every night? Do you think it’s fair to leave them without you because you think a seat belt is uncomfortable?” I’ve rarely been in a car without using them since. He wasn’t even talking about me – he was telling me a story about someone else!But had I been driving a car that didn’t have seat belts, I doubt I would have just bought a new car I couldn’t afford to get them.Competition improves functionality and brings down cost. Until we can all afford one, I only hope we all keep our wits.If you find a splinter stop – let me know. Unless, of course, it’s a plastic bubble around all wood. We’d have to start this debate all over again ! ;-)

Colin

on 02/18/2011 at 10:39 AM

This is an interesting article as it hits pretty close to home right now. I’m typing this post with one hand, as I am in week 4 of recovery from a table saw injury. Technically, I am lucky when it comes to these injuries, I amputated the end of my thumb and cut all the extensor tendons on the back of my hand. Thanks to great medical service everything is reattached and I can expect a full recovery. I have been woodworking for about 10 years now, half that time professionally.Because I had a very limited budget and small space I bought a smaller jobsite type saw. This brings up a point that several have mentioned… simply having a high quality saw with precision safety devices such as the riving knife and a blade guard that actually lifts up when you push a piece of wood through it will go a long way. Turns our in my case never being able to get the riving knife perfectly aligned led to pinching and kickback.So yes, a Saw-Stop is REALLY high on my list right now, but to be fully honest, basically because it is the only company that currently offers a safety device of this type. If other companies offered similar safety devices I would happily look at them too. I noticed several people talking about the price. Yup, the least expensive model is roughly $1,700. Some competition to bring this down would be great, however, let me just say $1,700 is a hell of a lot less than these medical bills.There was also some concern about government (ooh, big scary word) regulation on the implementation of these devices. Sure, government regulation can go overboard, but part of the reason we have an organized government is to leverage more influence than a few individuals can when the free market is NOT meeting our needs.The last comment I have is in response to all the “just know how to use your table saw safely.” Yeah, your right, but unfortunately making 10,000 safe cuts doesn’t give you a little bonus that you can apply to that one cut that doesn’t go well. I would ask everyone who reads these posts, have you ever, even once been distracted, had a close call or not reattached a safety device to your saw because “it’s only one quick cut”?If we can make saws safer then why in the world would we not? If the free market can do that, awesome. If it takes government regulation on the safety of the most dangerous tool in the shop then so be it. But I’m not going to stay up at night feeling sorry for all the table saw companies that may have to add a new safety device to their saws.

Rick

on 02/18/2011 at 12:25 PM

Colin – I am truly sorry about your injury. I have not been at this too long, but never a real scare. I’m glad to hear you will be back to full strength.It’s the unintended consequences of government involvement that worries me.Assume legislation passes – does my insurance go down if I buy a SS as a hobbyist? It certainly should, as my risk just went way down. But we know it won’t. In fact, it will probably go UP until I do and then only come back down a portion because now awareness is more keen on the problem.Does insurance stop paying out if I don’t buy a SS? That would essentially take anyone who can’t afford it out of the hobby, or force them to find alternatives. Then there are circular saws, chain saws, and a host of other places this might affect. Might the exposed chainsaw dangers without a “stop” technology make all chainsaw carving artists and events illegal?Yeah, I’m reaching, but worse things have happened.Are you required to buy one to continue as a pro? If you can’t afford it, do you cease operations until you can? Or take a small business loan to upgrade? Aren’t your costs (and all pros across the industry) going to pass that cost along to the public?Only a fool would deny your concerns about how we work or use tools. We owe it to each other as citizens, neighbors, friends, and the woodworking community to encourage each other to be wise and informed.I don’t intend to stop woodworking. I do intend to work as smartly and safely as I can. I also plan to buy a safer table saw when I can afford one.I retreat to the rhetorical position that if people stop buying anything but SS, every saw on the market will soon have a competitor technology. We win.People ARE buying more Macs and iPhones. Windows and smart phones ARE improving.Wishes for a fast, better than expected recovery ;-)

Jim

on 02/18/2011 at 02:54 PM

Note I never said kids would stick their hand in the blade, I said they would trigger the mechanism. Could mean a nail in a board or hitting it with a miter gauge. I distinctly remember doing and seeing very stupid stuff done in wood and metal shop in high school. I doubt kids have gotten less goofy in the last 20 years. Of course our shop teacher would say we never did anything bad in our class either because it always happened when his back was turned and there were never any serious injuries (minor burns, scrapes, etc)If the guard is above the table, do you really need to remove it to do dados or rabbits? I have to remove mine because it’s attached to a splitter but if the guard was suspended above the blade, I don’t see a reason why I would need to remove it for those cuts. Even using a crosscut sled would be workable if you can pull the blade guard up 6 inches off the table or so and keep your hands to the right and left of the guard….Again, I’m not saying SawStop is a bad thing, I’m just saying there are other aspects to be thought about and as much as no one wants to say it, there is always a cost factor involved. It’s all well and good to say it’s cheaper then a hospital visit but that’s not generally how budgets are made otherwise we all would have bought european style saws a long time ago and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.Maybe the answer for schools is to just have non-powered hand tool shops only (I’m really thinking it’s a better way to learn woodworking anyway after going the power tool route for most of my life, I’m learning much more about wood while I try to learn hand tools then I ever knew when making stuff with power tools) I’m sure someone will complain about chisel injuries or something though :) Lots of good stuff in this discussion. Lots of differing viewpoints and that’s good. Keeps it interesting…

Colin

on 02/18/2011 at 04:21 PM

Thanks for the thoughts Rick. I do see your points with regulation, so it’s certainly not something to approach hastily.As a follow up to my own reply above, Whirlwind looks like a very exciting invention. The fact that it offers both a riving knife and overarm attachment for smaller saws and can handle miters as well is really, really nice. The combination of selling something like the Whirlwind with new saws AND consumers being able to buy an after-market add on for their existing saw could go a long way for providing many people with a reasonably priced safety device.

Mike

on 02/19/2011 at 11:19 AM

Colin, I hope you have a speedy recovery. I had a table saw mishap nearly 25 years ago. I was 19 yrs old, working alone in the shop. My safety training, at that point, was “keep your hands away from the blade”, and that was about it. I learned the hard way. My accident left me with two fingers that are still there, but don’t really work that great. Thanks to Norm, and some other woodworkers, I am now well versed in table saw safety.I have been a professional woodworker for the last 27 yrs. In those years, I have seen quite a few knuckleheads with hand injuries. After observing their safety habits, it is usually quite obvious why they got injured. That said, even an experienced, safety conscious can get injured. The more cuts you make, the better your odds of being injured.So far, I love comments. The most popular comment seems to be that the SawStop ruins your blade. Like it’s a bad thing. One trip to the ER for 8 or nine stitches would cost 5 times the price of a Forrest blade. When is the last time anyone you know only needed a few stitches from a table saw accident. With the SawStop, you are buying insurance for your hands. Period. You buy insurance for your car, your motorcycle, and your house. But the price of a new blade is outrageous! I don’t need that finger anyway! I know that many people can’t afford it. I can’t afford it either. When I do finally open my own shop, I WILL purchase a SawStop saw or the new equivalent. Your hands are worth it.

John

on 02/21/2011 at 02:44 PM

I’m always looking for ways to make my shop safer, if this helps I am glad that they are doing something to limit injury.

Alan

on 02/22/2011 at 04:20 PM

A few years back, I was part of the development of products for the medical market. I lived in Penna. at the time. The State Government decided that a certain amount of medical information needed to captured. So they defined a a set of specs about exactly what the software had to to do. It was required for all hospitals and clinics to buy software that did exactly as specified. Guess what? Only one company had the software. And they made a killing.After a while the set of specs defined by the government was no longer appropriate. And the company with the deified software were contracted to recommend and implement changes. This is government at its finest, corrupt.This is the position that SS has placed itself and a reason I feel such mandates will make never be made for the individual but for the powerful and the political friends.Change will happen and SS mandate will just be used for keeping competition off the market.Alan

Rick

on 02/23/2011 at 08:51 AM

Alan – couple questions out of curiosity, if I may. . .Did the state legislature pass law that required hospitals and clinics to purchase this software by name, or that means to capture the info was required and this was the only offering?Secondly, assuming the software was named, is it constitutional in that state that government require a specific private party product to be sold?In this case, if legislation were passed, the idea proposed is that all table saw manufacturers would incorporate a safety technology.And yes, currently SS is the only one on the market and the contention is that they would get rich on licensing their technology.That’s where my analogy is aimed: Windows was/is the dominant OS technology, but they were restricted from having the type of control and ability to close out competition. Since then, the competition has seen that it wasn’t enough to hate Microsoft coupled with anti-trust rulings to get their product accepted in the homes and business offices around the world. It was a better OS. I’m sitting here on a Mac because Vista sucked so bad. That, coupled with software that lets me run Windows as though it were a separate computer means it’s the best of both worlds. Win 7 has had me looking at Windows again because it’s worked and the hardware is cheaper.Competition – free market – that’s why I don’t want any government regulation on this. Government should only keep the door open for innovators, inventors and pioneers. We should teach, share, research, and then purchase the best available or invest in what we hope to see become the best.

Frank

on 02/23/2011 at 09:26 PM

Well said.

John

on 02/27/2011 at 09:15 PM

My count has 2300 teeth passing a single point in one second…

Dennis Bell

on 03/02/2011 at 10:33 AM

Hi Marc:I just want to compliment you on this article. Well thought out and timely.Dennis

Dezri Dean

on 03/02/2011 at 01:00 PM

Unfortunately I doubt that ANY technology can stop ALL injuries or mistakes to or by the operator of the equipment.The first ridiculous injury law suit I remember hearing about is where a lawnmower Mfg Company lost a law suit after two idiots decided to use the said lawnmower as a hedge trimmer – picking it up by the deck and lifting it up to trim the top of the hedge! They won because there were no labels on the equipment telling them NOT to use it in such a fashion.I wouldn’t be surprised to hear of someone suing a weapons mfg because there were no warnings against using it to clean out your ears or sinus!The biggest problem with the lawsuits is that they are often caused by stupidity both on the part of the injured person AND our current court and social system where no one has to accept personal responsibility for their actions – stupid or not!Drunk drivers might as well be suing car makers because they didn’t install equipment to keep them from driving drunk!

BoredCutter

on 03/03/2011 at 01:52 PM

Nothing, absolutely NOTHING will ever replace caution, due care or common sense, folks. I love technology, I spent a good portion of my youth developing it for a large computer company. Lately however, I’ve noticed that technology has begun to be pressed into doing something it should never do. It’s being designed to replace our our own judgement.If one finds that they are ‘common-sense deprived’, they should take up a less mentally-taxing and sophisticated craft. Say…. watching paint dry from a distance outdoors (fumes could erode their precious and few brain cells).Do we next start designing egg-beaters so that their products retract into the device’s bodies upon contacting flesh, simply because we can’t be bothered to use due care? If you own a SawStop, fantastic.They’re wonderful. I’m sure. If you also wish to think you’re now safer when using your tablesaw, also fine. Please, do the rest of us a favor? Shut up about it and just go build something? Most of us know how to get one. Most of us don’t need one. Chances are, neither do you. You just drank their marketing “kool-aid”. (“Your wife recommends this saw”.)Of course, that is your right. I just wouldn’t advertise it.What’s next? “Your children need you to use this saw”? Why not, “Unless you buy this saw, the terrorists win”? How about some barely-dressed bikini-clad nit-wit bimbo telling us that the SawStop user really attracts her. Don’t think it can’t happen. Sex sells a lot of lousy beer in the world.How about, “use your logic, common sense, safety rules clearly laid out by manufacturers, and due care and you will be fine”. Yes, there’s a problem there — no marketing ploys needed, no attorneys need be employed.When you try to make *anything* idiot-proof, the world just puts out even stupider idiots. That man who sued the tablesaw company for more than a million, essentially because he’s an ignorant clod, should be sterilized. That should have been part of the settlement agreement, and it should include that stipulation for his legal team as well. That he was awarded money for his stupidity is not the exception anymore, it’s now becoming more like the rule. Stupid, uneducated and careless people are now making more of the rules in the world, with the help of smart lawyers whispering in their ear what to say, and what to think. Get used to it.

Uncle Wayne

on 03/03/2011 at 07:38 PM

How could a company like Shop Smith put such a device on there machine, or any machine built like that. In the last 60+ years I have only come close once to being niped my all my saws. Seems to me like it has been said before don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.

Colin

on 03/04/2011 at 09:57 AM

The first half of this comment list has some good, insightful comments. The second half (see comments directly above) has become more of a sounding stage for… I’m not exactly sure what, ego boosting?I don’t think there is a single person on this forum who would argue that electronic safety devices should “replace” safe working practices. Yet there seem to be ample comments/complaints that that is the argument being waged.So here is a thought, instead of getting on and preaching about how you’ve spent the better part of a century with only one close call, or how we should apply Darwinian principals to table saws and woodworking in order to weed out anyone but the perfect table saw user (or at least deny them their fingers) how about we start posting something useful.Am I writing this in argument that someone SHOULD be able to file a million dollar lawsuit because they misused their table saw? NO! But here’s an old saying, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.Not many people would argue that seat-belts, anti-lock brakes and airbags have been really terrible technological advances for the automobile, but they are still no substitution for safe driving.Table saw accidents happen all the time, in school woodshop, at home, and in professional workplaces. Are there other aspects besides just technology that can reduce these incidents? Certainly and if you can articulate them, please do. If this technology is available, how should it be implemented? By government mandate? That certainly isn’t a very popular method. I share the same sentiments as a poster way at the beginning. It is disheartening that after more than seven years since the release of the SawStop technology, no other main-stream saw manufacturer has implemented or even announced development of competitive technology. Without competitive technology, SawStop will remain expensive and the technology will continue to tout an air of egalitarianism, which given many comments above, seems to be as big an issue as anything.

Rick

on 03/04/2011 at 10:32 AM

It would be interesting to see a series of polls on this to more concisely analyze the positions in this posting – if one has already been done, so be it.However, I was thinking either a survey (several questions) or a series of polls to help define the opinions.My stance is clear but people may not be interested in reading the whole forum at this point because of length. The poll might summarize the whole thing.Just a thought…

MikeD

on 03/04/2011 at 10:45 AM

Let’s not forget that everyone is entitled to their opinion. In the same thought entitled to share their opinion. That is what open forum is all about, right?I think what most of the nay-sayers to Saw Stop tech are trying to say is that they should be able to make a choice to embrace the technology or cast it aside.I personally think involving switching tech like this is more room for error. Electronics tend to go bad at some point. Especially in areas where humidity changes frequently. Good luck with that.

Keith

on 03/04/2011 at 01:12 PM

MikeD, I agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I would not think to stop their opinions. As I said before open discussion means people are thinking about it. That can only be a good thing. People are able to disable the brake. A choice to use it or not. Well having worked in embedded technologies as an electrical engineer, I can tell you, humidity is SO easily overcome, piece of cake. As for electronice going bad, sure anything can go bad. or we wouldn’t need mechanics. :) All that being said, there is an evolution in everything. This is an evolution in table saws. And the way I see it, if someone is not on-board, they will be left behind and their table saw will be looked at like a shaker moulding plane. Old useful tool. In short, get on board or stay on shore waving as you get left behind.The sentiment here is not to say one is right and the other wrong. But I agree with Colin in that I don’t think ‘ve heard ANY of the nay side, that would make me say no to a sawstop type tech on tablesaws. Just alot of if you get hurt you deserve it because you weren’t being safe or what not. Shenanighans ! I say. Every time you apply power to a tool, you risk being hurt, be it from something you do that is not safe, working when too tired, some odd unforeseen stress in the material you’re cutting. defect in the tool you’re using, dull tools……If you have gone over 60 years without an incident, then be thankful. It only takes ONE time. a split second. and your life changes. I have an uncle that NEVER wears his seatbelt (true story) and according to him, he had a ‘friend’ who wasn’t wearing one and a got in an accident and the policeman told his friend if he had been wearing a seatbelt he would have been killed. And my uncle drives around this way, and touts how he doesn’t wear his seatbelt because he’s a safe driver and has not been in an accident. He actually calls them…deathbelts. This is what I think about when I read some of the naysayers arguments, It JUST doesn’t make sense. a safety item is a GOOD thing. Perfect no, but better then nothing. As I said before, and Colin re-iterated as long as there is only one, the price will be high and no innovations or choices.

Cowboy59

on 04/30/2011 at 12:06 AM

To all my wood working buddies,Great commentary from all of you. I have one small perspective to provide. Recently my 14 year old son and I embarked on setting up a new shop. We equipped our new shop with a new 3 hp table saw. I was all set to get a Powermatic, when my wife saw the video disk I had received from SawStop. She asked about it, so I showed her the video of the safety feature. After seeing the video she stated, “Get that saw. I don’t want to see my son lose a finger.”As you guessed our new shop has a SawStop. It is a great saw. Personally, I see the work that Saw Stop has done as good for the industry. Their work will inspire others to create similar and possibly better solutions. We must not lose site of the fact that great safety features that do not inhibit our ability to perform the task are good. Just ask the NASCAR drivers if they would give up any of their safety features.Creativity and ingenuity provides solutions to problems and hopefully we all benefit from them. Now let’s go cut some wood.

John R

on 05/13/2011 at 05:23 PM

The safety aspect of sawstop is advanteagous. However the problem blade and saw part replacement makes this system a better solution. Depending upon my need to replacethe tablesaw and cost, I would consider it.

Tom

on 07/15/2011 at 10:22 AM

I’d like to have a SawStop. It’s a good tool, and I have used one. But my tool budget will not accommodate it.In any case, purchasing the SS would leave me with a Planer, a Miter Saw, a Drill Press, a Band Saw, a Scroll Saw, a Router, a Jig Saw, a portable Circular Saw, and a cordless Drill that lack a similar safety feature. Granted, they do not all pose the same risk, but they do all have powered cutting edges, and some of them move those cutting edges at very high speed.I’ll toss out some free engineering here: The way SawStop works is to (1) move the blade away and (2) stop the blade by crushing a stop block. It stops the blade in 50 milliseconds or so, which (I once calculated) is about the time between teeth on a typical 10 inch blade. This is good.If the goal is to stop the blade between teeth, another way would be to actuate a clutch that disconnects the blade from the rotating mass of the motor, and another clutch that stops the blade. Swinging the blade away as is done in SS is still a good idea. This approach (double clutch) would preserve the blade and would not destroy any parts.This same approach would work with most all of the power tools I own.Think about it….

Ben

on 07/20/2011 at 01:20 AM

I am a student at the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding in Washington and we use three Saw Stop saws. I have a few major complaints with the Sawstop. When used everyday almost all day at the school the “Flawless Dust Collection” doesn’t work at all really. I have had to repeatedly get into the saw and vacuum out the interior especially by the gas assisted height adjustment mechanism. Dust collects there mostly, mixes with the oil and turns into a paste that keeps the saw from lowering completely so that at the end of the day when I like to drop the blade below the table it sticks out about a 16th of an inch. Second, the perfectly ground table isn’t very flat at all. I attended a machining school before the boat school and I think i know why the table isn’t very flat. In the old days companies used to age their steel for about 6 months in the weather because steel, like wood twists and warps. After the aging process the steel is then machined to final dimensions and installed on the machine. I have a feeling Sawstop doesn’t do this and suffers for it. I know they’re not the only company who doesn’t do this anymore, but it’s been quite noticeable. Third, at the boat school we mill up a lot of green Oak and every time so far this year that I have turned the bypass on the mechanism still reacts to the moisture in the wood and engages the brake.Fourth, the Sawstop has a wimpy motor. Most of the boards we deal with at the school are around 10 to 15 feet or longer by 12 quarter or more thick. When ripping down to smaller sizes for frames or planking the motor always bogs down with little forward force on the blade. I know it’s the motor because I have been going over to our Powermatic now that has the same size blade but a larger motor and have had no problems thus far. Fifth, the most annoying problem we have had on each of the saws is the axle for the height adjustment and bevel wheel gets chewed up in about a month because of the key that tightens against the bore. I have had to take apart the wheel and axle, which a very persnickety task, and then use a disk brake honing attachment for a drill to clean out the bore and then buy a new axle. I really like the safety feature a lot, it saved my finger once, and the knife works really well actually, but with good training a Powermatic, Jet, Oliver and many other more Powerful saws are the way to go. The Powermatic at the school is older, runs better, cuts cleaner and is simpler to maintain. I personally like Olivers the most, and they are within the same budget of the Sawstop.I really think Sawstop should stop making saws and work towards incorporating their safety features with different companies.

Roger Steele

on 09/18/2011 at 10:19 PM

I am all for healthy competition. I have a serious problem with a table saw safety system that is built into the saw guard. One of my biggest pet peeves is when I watch a Television show where the “Professional” woodworkers are cutting all of their boards WITHOUT the blade guard in place. Some of them make a comment that the blade guards are removed so you can more easily see what is being done. I call B.S. I have been on many construction sites and in dozens of Carpentry shops and I have never seen any of these professionals using their blade guards. So while having the saws safety system built into the Blade Guard is an alternative. I don’t believe it would save too many fingers while laying in a box under the bench collecting dust. I worked for over 25 years in an OSB Manufacturing Facility in the Quality and R&D Department. If we did not use the blade guard while cutting up sample boards we were written up and could ultimately be fired. I personally cut up thousands of panels down to samples as small as 1″ X 5″ and never made a cut without the saw guard. A properly maintained and adjusted blade guard does save fingers. In 25 years there were only 2 people who were injured on either of our 3 Unisaw Cabinet saws and they were stupidly cutting boards while wearing gloves. Despite the signs posted on either side of the saw warning against glove use on table saws, as stated in the Unisaws Table Saw user guide. While wearing the gloves they did not feel when they touched the blade guide and once the glove touched the saw teeth it just pulled their hands in farther. I have been gone from the mill for almost 6 years now and as I was leaving they were installing SawStop Cabinet saws in all 12 of our mills.

Paul

on 10/09/2011 at 10:22 PM

Tim – One only has to look at lawnmowers to find almost all of the answers to the questions you pose. Currently, it is against the law to sell any lawnmower not equipped with the blade brake. What this means is that should you own a machine built before the CSPC mandated blade brakes and you sell it in a yard sale, you’ve broken the law. You can continue to keep and use it, just don’t sell it. Same will go with tablesaws. What will end up happening is many of us will be stuck with old saws we cannot sell.

Paul

on 10/09/2011 at 10:28 PM

Great! Only one problem I can suggest is – what if the CPSC mandates “flesh” detection on all tablesaws. Does Whirlwind satisfy that requirement, or is Whirlwind “object” detection in which case it fails? This may be “splitting a hair” so to speak, but isn’t that exactly how our gov’t works?

Brad L

on 10/10/2011 at 11:58 AM

So now we will be in the hands (pardon the pun) of our wonderful law makers in Washington. Funny thing I read a post on my website about a school that got a new SawStop and some high school kids ran a chicken thru it a few days later. Now being the conspiracy theorist that I can be at times, did anyone see the movie Runaway Jury? If not, watch it and then wonder if someone like Steven Gass couldn?t be the Flesh Detecting Lobbyist who swung the Jury to award such a verdict? Hey, just saying because he did write a very broad patent (being a lawyer himself) and has been trying to get his idea to be law. I was on the verge of buying a sawstop saw but I decided against it when you look at the quality of a saw today for the same money. But the real reason was, why buy something that will allow me to, not to practice a high level of safety, and then me go to a machine like a bandsaw that requires me to really think? I?d would just like to have one set of standards for me. THINK ? THINK ?THINK and pay attention!!

Thetommyhawk

on 10/29/2011 at 06:34 PM

I have a Sawstop! Not only is it safer but it’s a great saw damn it! I have had a Jet, a Steal City and a Powermatic. This is the best of all of them. Whirlwind won’t make a dent because Sawstop’s price is very competitive and, the biggest reason ……. NO ONE WANTS TO WORK WITH A DAMN BLADE GUARD! If people used blade guards, 90% of the accidents could be avoided.

commonsensesays

on 11/27/2011 at 05:02 AM

It is easy to get sidetracked by all the secondary issues. But it is really simple: the reason so many people have a negative reaction to the proposed legislation is because it is just morally wrong for an individual to push for legislation that will financially benefit that person almost exclusively. That is not what laws should be about.Doesn’t matter if it’s been done before. Don’t care if “making money is the American way.” If Mr. Gass is TRULY, HONESTLY concerned about the safety of woodworkers, he should offer his technology for free. Or even allow others to tread CLOSE to his patents (I guarantee those patents are doggedly enforced so that anything remotely resembling SawStop’s tech is barred). I’m sure he makes a good living as an attorney. He deserves a good living, like everyone else. But he wants to make A LOT of money by LEGALLY MANDATING adoption of his patented technology. No one should be entitled to use legislation to get rich.If he wants to take the bad smell away from the situation, and prove he is concerned about safety, he should stop enforcing the patents. He should continue earning his money the HONEST way: by making a great saw that people want, and can afford to purchase. If SawStop saws are better than other saws, people will buy them, even if every saw has the same technology. There are plenty of historical examples of individuals who advocated for laws with honest, morally-sound motivations. Gass’s motivations are clearly, inarguably, self-serving. And it stinks. PS – You know what’s the best, cheapest and non-patented way to avoid losing fingers to table saws? Keep your damn hands away from the blade. PPS – Wood working can’t be compared to driving a car. I can keep from injuring myself at the tablesaw without resorting to any legal mandates. It is an individual activity. I am solely responsible. When I drive a car, I cannot control other drivers. It is a collective activity, and safety regulations in that context protect individuals from forces beyond their control.PPPS – Mr. Spagnuolo has a good insight regarding human nature that Mr. Gass should heed. Companies are not going to just throw in the towel and start handing him royalties. They WILL find alternate ways of complying with any new mandates. But since the primary concern is safety, the loss of all that potential income shouldn’t be a problem.

thetommyhawk

on 11/28/2011 at 09:42 AM

commonsensesays ……. sorry, I disagree with you. The point of this article is “will the Whirlwind kill the Sawstop” and on this point I saw “NO WAY!”

Brad L

on 11/28/2011 at 12:00 PM

I couldn’t agree with you more!!! Steve is out for Steve and at the expense of our workshops. In fact I just bought a new table saw last weekend that should last me years to come before any law can be passed. Granted it would take a long time to pass the law, but I needed a new saw now as my motor burned out on my old Delta. Guess what? I DID NOT BUY A SAWSTOP. I looked at them long and hard, but as I pointed out in my comment in October, when you look at price and functional features and you set yourself up with a good set of working standards, the features out weighed in my caseNow the interesting point I found out with Sawstop, the technology works if you are moving slow, but if your hand slips, there will be some very serious damage. I followed up on a story where some kids ran a chicken through the new Sawstop saw at a local high school. It seems that they didn’t just bring the chicken up slowly to the blade, but at a high rate of speed. By the time of the saw dropping out, the neck was almost cut off. Watch the videos. you will see how slowly they touch the blades. I think that Steven needs to show a more realistic test, showing what would happen if the hand slipped while pushing something through. He can us a hot dog (i’d understand), but I will bet you, we will find that the hot dog will be quite mangled up.

Keith

on 11/28/2011 at 01:12 PM

No one can stop a table saw from injuring you and honestly no matter what saftey features are there, there is a way to get around them if you try. If you look at the demos for SS (I have) he is moving it through the saw at a ‘normal’ speed for cross cutting. This is such a tired argument at this point. If you don’t want a TS with a saw stop then buy something else.

commonsensesays

on 11/28/2011 at 05:43 PM

LOL. I forgot to answer the original question while i was up on my soapbox. Answer: I have no idea.While I’m at it, would it be a thread hijack to ask honestly: IS there any operation on a tablesaw that cannot be accomplished with a push-stick or other finger-distancing tool or maneuver? I can’t think of any, but I freely admit I don’t know everything about anything.

thetommyhawk

on 11/28/2011 at 08:50 PM

Commonsensesays says; “I don?t know everything about anything.” my common sense says ………….. I do know everything about nothing! LOLMy main interest in the Sawstop was the other people who always show up at the shop to “just make a couple quick cuts”! I’ve seen two table saw accidents and they were ugly. In both cases there was no blade guard and in one instance the guys hand was at least 8 inches from the blade when the board kicked back …….. now he can’t even muster a respectable bird!Take care my friend!P.S., Did you build that soap box?

Mark Sherman

on 12/27/2011 at 12:39 AM

We’ve been though this issue with seat belts, air bags, … If your air bag deploys, it will cost you or your insurance company $1500 for a new one. It may save your life. The Sawstop technology will cost you about $750.00 more (retail) and a new blade and brake can cost you up to $175. Still cheaper than an airbag.The more important question is this: Why don’t other saw manufactures offer safer saws? Why don’t they at least have their saws meet European standards that are stronger than those in the US?Attacking Steve deflects from the issue which is that we can now easily build safer saws. So why not?

commonsensesays

on 12/27/2011 at 03:12 PM

Mark: I kinda feel like I gave a pretty decent explanation of the difference between Auto-related safety technology (communal activity) and Woodwork-related safety technology (solitary activity). But to add another example of the differences: there are no home-made jigs or precautions one can use to achieve the same level of safety offered by seatbelts and airbags when driving. With table saws, there are existing, available, cheap jigs, and simple precautions one can use to be absolutely as safe as when using a SawStop saw. But you have to USE them. Would you rather practice “open-source” safety or be forced to use expensive, “proprietary” safety technology?Also, what European standards are you referring to? I’m always up for learning about how safety is addressed by other woodworkers.I’d have to go back and reread all the posts, but I don’t remember any “attacks.” This forum is actually refreshing in that regard. Discussions of business practices and legal strategies are integral to the subject. It doesn’t seem to have gotten personal at all. Says something about the high quality of Wood Whisperer fans, yes?

Geir

on 12/27/2011 at 04:37 PM

What the “fleshsensing” has in common with airbags is that it is a last line of defence. And to rely solely on such a last line is stupid in my opinion.Take cars: we have to pass a test and get a license, cars have many built in safety devices and roads are built to prevent accidents.With saws there are many things we could do, but that is ignored by many. Even the finest woodworking magazines have photos of tablesaws without splitters that reach over the blade, and blade guards. That’s important in the european standards. All larger European saws also have a sliding table which prevents your hand from moving towards the blade.Table saws used to be the big killer in our shops also, but I don’t think it is any more.Myself, I prefer another strategy. After I got the bandsaw I use that instead.

Paul

on 03/13/2012 at 03:43 PM

not sure what all the hated for SawStop is. All the big names in the tablesaw industry had their chance when the inventor tried to sell it to them, oops. He is an example of the american dream. The Whirlwind looks stupid and cumbersum to work around particularly when doing dados. I love my Saw stop, i would purchase it before a Powermatic or a Delta, not only is it safe it one hell of a saw, and no i dont work for the company

tom buhl

on 03/13/2012 at 05:03 PM

Paul, SawStop inventor may be living the American Dream, but success through litigation sticks in some folks craw. We are have varied sensibilities regarding mandated safety. I am all for mandatory seat belts in automobiles and trucks. But not fond of mandatory seat belts on playground sandboxes. I am sure that some have been injured in sandboxes, but for me…Glad you enjoy using the SawStop, both its capabilities and the sense of attention to user safety.

Vincent

on 03/21/2012 at 12:13 PM

The hate for sawstop isn’t for the technology, it’s the mandate that it must be used. When the inventor of the technology couldn’t get the big manufacturers to bite on it, he started his own company (a good thing because he felt his product was better). But now that he is not getting the sales he believe’s he should get, he petitions his legislature to to mandate the technology so he can have a bigger slice of the market. Most the saftey regulations we have are due to the inattention of the user, not the failure of a product. There is no personal responsibility in this country anymore. Most people’s credo is “It’s not my fault”

Mark Mueller

on 05/16/2012 at 12:09 AM

Paul, regarding lawnmmowers and CPSC requirements. I’ve been in the lawnmower/small engine business for 25+ years. You are correct in that CPSC requires the blade stop turning when the lever is released. There’s 2 ways to accomplish this. Stop the engine via a brake and ignition kill, or a BBC which stands for Blade Brake Clutch. The later diengages the blade from the engine and stops it but allows the engine to continue running. Here’s where the law gets gets a little screwy. While it was illegal for me as a seller to disable any safety device, I was not required to restore safty devices that had been bypassed. If a customer brought in his mower for repair and the blade stopping mechanism had been disabled, I was under no obligation to restore it. To protect us from liability, we had customers sign a form that stated the defect, the hazards that it posed, and that they released us from any and all liability that might arise from said defect. And the law only applies to the original seller of the mower (the retailer, us). Selling your non compliant mower at a garage/yard sale is permitted. Now on the topic at hand. I worked for Rockler until last year. I was usually the one who assembled tools due to my mechanical knowledge I’m very familiar with most saws out there. I’m also a contributor to the Old Wood Working Machines (OWWM) web site. When Rockler started selling selling Saw Stop, we had factory sales and service reps. come in and give a training session. Now for me, personally, the first thing I look at on a table saw is the fence and Saw Stops’ is as good as the next guys.Some of the S.S literature stated that after tripping the brake, a good sharpening service could repair the blade. But I watched the super slow motion of of blade being stopped and seeing all the dynamic changes taking place I would NEVER use that again for anything (except installing a clock mechanism and hanging it on the wall) So one strike against S.S. You gotta get a new brake cartridge and blade. Could be expensive depending on the blade. By the way, changing the blade and cartridge is not as quick and simple as they make it out to be. On some our demonstrations we had to pry them off with large screwdrivers. I like the idea the Whirlwind system doesn’t destroy any parts. When it comes to stopping times, there’s no contest. Whirlwind claims 1/8 second to stop. S.S 1/5000 second. The S.S. is lightning fast. ( the first demo. we did a man threw his coffee in the air!) It’s loud! Point for Saw Stop. Whirlwind appears to retrofit older saws. Point to Whirlwind.Now a few facts.The table saw is considered the most dangerous power tool based on the number of accidents. It only stands to reason. There are more table saws in use at any given time than any other tool. The law of probability catches says there should be more table saw accidents. Next, most table saw accidents are not blade contact events they are kickback related. And finally, the most serious accidents happen to professional wood workers, not hobbyists/weekend craftsmen. This is due to complacency. The pro. gets too comfortable and lax on safety. I used to tell my customers the most important safety device in your shop.I’m glad someone, is working on an alternative to Saw Stop. If the goverment decides to implement mandatory flesh detection, I’d hate to see Saw Stop being the only game in town. As for me, I’m not too concerned. My 55 year ols Unisaw will be going strong when most newer saws are ready for the scrap heap.

Trent

on 05/22/2012 at 10:50 AM

I think the Wirlwind/Sawstop comparison is an apples to oranges comparison. Wirlwind is a guard. If you use the guard your saw came equipped with you are very unlikely to get your hand/fingers into the blade. The sawstop provides protection when the guard is removed.

CyberDyneSystems

on 05/29/2012 at 12:05 PM

Though I find the idea of legislation silly, I find it more silly, in fact pathetic, that the established makers did not jump on the SawStop tech when they had the chance.Sawstop sales not up to expectations? Can’t imagine what those expectations are then, as frankly it is the only saw being sold to educational institutions. Delta etc have simply lost this market, and so they should.Vs. the Whirlwind,. 1/8 second does not seem fast enough for a major mistake…The guard is the big problem. There are many operations for which a guard like that do not work well.. I have the Industrial SawStop in my shop, it replaced a 1993 era Unisaw.It is better than the Unisaw in every way. It’s castings and machining are superior, it has a better fence (the 1193 Unisaws used the Unifence- pre Beisemier) better Miter gauge, better table, better switch, better dust collection, (FAR better!)As for swapping for the Dado set up, I find swapping to a dado stack on any machine a small chore that takes a few minutes. It is really only adding a step to this brief downtime to swap the Dado cartridge, which is done quicker than swapping the blades themselves. Nothing, nothing compares to the peace of mind the safety offers. A blade and cartridge is a small loss should I ever need to take advantage of the feature.Any down time after losing a blade and cartridge would only be to the owners poor planning.I have the spares sitting in a drawer ready to go so I will experience only about 4 minutes down time ( after I recover from the adrenaline rush of almost losing a finger! )compare that to the downtime of emergency room visits and you simply can not argue this case any more.Do I think that the safety feature should be mandatory? In fact I don’t, but I find it interesting that only one company cares to offer this option. And that the Sawstop seems to have outdone it’s competition in so many other areas as well.

CyberDyneSystems

on 05/29/2012 at 12:10 PM

FYI, My shop is in a University, where I teach students to use this equipment.We have to this day a 100% safety record on all tools, portable and stationary, and I will continue to do everything I can to maintain that.The table saw is and has been the tool that requires the most instruction.I fell that if the methods I instruct are utilized, the safety is almost fool proof.Almost,. there will always be those that take a short cut, and there will always be those unforeseen possibilities (don;t what they;d be now, that’s what makes them unforeseen)For those times, I am VERY grateful to have the Sawstop. I don’t want to be the instructor of record faced with the guilt of the loss of a students digits.

Mark Mueller

on 05/29/2012 at 03:48 PM

I think the jury in the Ryobi case made a poor decision. They deemed the saw to be “defective” because SawStop technology was not in place. I contend there was nothing defective about the saw. The saw did what it was designed to do…cut. The saw doesn’t care what it cuts. To me, a defective saw would be one that the blade flies off of. Or the motor catches fire Or safety devices like gaurds and switch lockouts which fail. Having read the trial transcripts I don’t feel the lawers ever proved a defect in the saw only that it didn’t have SS technology. Let me put it this way. Say a person is seriously injured or killed in an auto accident. And the car they were driving was an older model made before seat belts were mandatory. Now a jury comes along and says the manufacturer is liable because the car didn’t have seat belts, air bags, anti lock brakes, etc. that modern cars have. Did the manufacturer produce a defective product? No. It met all the safety requirements at the time it was made. Now seat belts and air bags are manatory. But the situations are different. More people own and drive cars than own and use tablesaws. If there was a large portion of the public cutting off digits on a daily basis, then goverment mandates might make sense. As it is, some basic common sense is required. And every tool out there with a sharp edge has an implied warning……” Sharp blade! Be careful”! Unfortunately, people have come to expect a perfectly safe world; that someone else is supposed to make sure they don’t get hurt in any way. And the proliferation of lawers adds to the climate of “Why didn’t you do something to protect me from myself”. I haven’t heard, one way or the other, if anyone has been seriously hurt using a SawStop. If they had, you probably wouldn’t here about it. After all, the creator is an attorney. And any negative feedback concerning his product could be quickly squashed. The biggest safety device there is lies between your ears.

M Bard

on 06/11/2012 at 07:33 PM

Ok really? 3000 people a year lose there fingers? So .00001 of one % of the population of the US each year? If you watch the time warp demonstration there is no fence on the saw and I am sure most of those 3000 injuries are guys cutting two by fours on construction sites who haven’t had proper training. Also on the demonstration he has way too much blade out for the thickness of board he is cutting which is unsafe in itself and causes blade to wear out faster due to heat caused by excessive friction. The removal of the fence means no safety for kick back which causes more table saw injuries a lot being fatal not just losing a digit. Any grade nine shop teacher will either show you how to make a stock push or you can buy many different designs made of plastic super cheap so your hands are not on the wood. This is a scare tactic to make money cause proper saw training is more useful in preventing this type of accident. Other problem I see are people taking chances they shouldnt because they have a safety net and sometimes even safety nets fail.Proper saw training for those using a saw will not only save lives and fingers but wear and tear on blades and equipment. Welcome to the world of fear mongering.

thewoodwhisperer

on 06/11/2012 at 07:53 PM

I think you might enjoy the intro to this video: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.co.....e-bandsaw/

M Bard

on 06/11/2012 at 10:10 PM

I love it stubby finger guy! I mean I feel bad the gentlemen lost a finger but I am glad someone had sense enough to show how ridiculous this fear mongering is! My father and Five older brothers always taught me don’t be scared of your tools BUT don’t be so brave as to be foolish always have a healthy respect for them.I work as an electrician most of my years and I see guys cutting ready rod with the chop saw and then using the side of the chop saw blade to grind and clean the cut ends so they can fit the nuts on the ready rod! Can this saw stop guy invent something to make the blade stop on the chop saw when some idiot uses it wrong on purpose OR hasn’t been told why it’s wrong? How about a hammer that doesn’t strike a steel chisel if it detects your not wearing eye protection? Don’t want fragments in the eye from mushroomed chisels. OH WAIT a paint spray gun that don’t spray if your not wasting a respirator OH MAN the possibilities are endless and we can be rich rich rich uh wait Uhm safe safe safe!

Fujijohn

on 07/06/2012 at 10:31 AM

What is the percentage breakdown of causes injuries from a table saw?My guess from 35 years of professional sales installation expeirence:1. Kick back of material from either: OVER 50% of injuries a- tension in wood – improperly dried or natural tension from growth location b-tension in panel , plywood, mdf ect – banana effect c-improperely aligned rip fence d-warped blade – ripping faster then tooth gullet design – e-dull blade- too thin- not correct height f- No dust collection, -saw dust builds up -offsets work piece g- combination of two or more of the above2 Cutting hands, fingers ect: (less then 50%) a- Removal of safety guards b- Incorrect positioning of safety guards – allows for hands and/ordigits to get too close c- No dust collection – poor visibility3 Inhaling sawdustI can see government backed vo-tech and high schools implementing SS as cheap insurance on the inherent tendecies of some students lack of focus, but for any serious professiona, proper continual training must be part of the business culture, which is the proper use of the said equipment. However the grey area, is the hobbyist -what level of indvidual responsibity does she/he have when not properly operating tools? Somebody buys a new $300 table saw from a big box, there is no money for individual hands on training.

Robert Gallowah

on 07/06/2012 at 02:44 PM

I would not willingly spend an extra dime for SawStop. Government, get out of my shop.What does SawStop have for the radial arm saw? My first table saw was home made. It had no blade guard. Fifty some years later, I still have all my fingers intact. Power saws are only dangerous if you’re not paying attention.

machinehead

on 08/01/2012 at 09:15 PM

Individual responsibility goes to the heart of the problem. We as a society are so litigous we expect compenstaion for every mishap because surely it must be someone else’s fault we tampered with or used improperly the offending item. All the lawyers and govenrment intrusion cannot mitigate the fact that stupid kills and maims every day and it didn’t matter what the condition or quality of the equipment. It is YOUR responsibility to look out for you.

Chuck Johnson

on 09/13/2012 at 04:50 PM

Several people seem impressed with the 1/8 second stopping time.Have you done the math?A 10″ blade turning 3450 RPM travels 7.1 revolutions in 1/8 second. That’s 288 teeth! Now that’s not a real count if is Whirlwind is decelerating the blade, but it’s a pretty fair bet that at least ONE revolution is involved.The SawStop, on the other hand, (and hopefully you still have both hands), stops in 1/5000 second, or ONE HALF of a tooth! THAT’s why you get at most a scratch before the blade disappears.I would love to have a SawStop, but for my small garage shop, $3K just isn’t in the budget. I’ll have to resort to working carefully. Whirlwind is on the right track, but 1/8 second is NOT fast enough to make it safe.

RICK

on 09/28/2012 at 09:22 PM

It’s real simple ! F R E E D O M O F C H O I C E !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Find another way to get a return on your investment. Don’t get G R E E D Y. I am sure they are not lying awake at night worried about everyone’s fingers !!!

David

on 11/01/2012 at 09:22 AM

Chuck, you are missing a very important detail. Yes the SS works in 1/5000 of a second versus the 1/8 of a second for the Whirlwind. However, Whirlwind does not require blade contact to stop the blade while the SS does. It could very well be a draw!

D. Anson Brody

on 01/04/2013 at 01:00 PM

I’m a full time musician and a hobby instrument builder. When I first heard of the saw stop technology I was exited. I make my living with the fine motor skills of my hand. I have been well trained with shop tools yet I’m always a bit nervous when working on table and band-saws. I see it as cheap insurance. One time, even just one gig saved(well, decently paid gig) it pays for itself. I’m really looking forward to a band-saw model. I think schools would be wise to use it. That said, I am against any legislation to make this technology a requirement.

Steven Jaynes

on 02/25/2013 at 04:27 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to chime in now that I have 2 years owner’s experience with a Sawstop and have multiple years of ownership of Delta Unisaw, Jet Pro Shop Hybrid saw, and frequent use of a Powermatic 66.Disclaimer: I have no experience with the smaller Sawstop models, the new generation of Unisaw, Grizzly or Jet cabinet-class table saws, or as mentioned above, the newer Powermatic PM2000. I don’t work for any tool or wood working retailer/wholesaler. I’m a computer geek by trade. I have absolutely no connection to Sawstop or any of the other companies mentioned here, except as a consumer.Two years ago, I purchased a USED 5HP Industrial Sawstop with 52″ rails. I purchased this SPOTLESS 6-month old Sawstop off of Craig’s List for about what a 5HP PM2000 cost new. It came with the pneumatic mobility base, an extra cartridge, a Dado cartridge, and a Dado Insert. I added the new dust collection system. I had set out to purchase the 3 HP Professional model when I found the 5 HP Industrial model.For reference, I previously owned a 3HP Unisaw (mid-1970s model). We were in a smaller home for about 8 years, so I sold the Unisaw and eventually purchased a 1-3/4 HP Jet Pro Shop hybrid saw. I had access to a friend’s Powermatic 66 for about 2 of those 8 years. The 1987 Unisaw had the mid-80’s high-low Delta rip fence and the Powermatic 66 had the Bessey style rip fence. Both had extended (48″+) rip capacity with melamine extension tables. The Jet Pro Shop was a different class of machine, and while nearly identical fit and finish quality as the saws I’m discussing here with only 30 rip fence rails. It is a saw of an entirely different class with a smaller table surface, etc then the other saws compared here, but STILL an exceptional machine in the “disposable” times we live in.Prior to purchasing my Sawstop, I favored the Powermatic 66 of all the saw’s I’d used in my own or friends shops or in classes and woodworking classes. With that, I can honestly say, I can see absolutely no quality or performance difference between my Sawstop and the Powermatic 66 in cutting performance. Bevels and blade height adjustments are of near equal quality. The Sawstop takes a little less cranking effort for blade elevation. I like the riving knife and quick-release setup on the Sawstop, whereas the Powermatic 66 had no riving knife installed. Actually, I REALLY like the quick release for change between the full blade guard/dust collection configuration, riving knife only, or nothing at all. I would like a little more positive lock and secure feel for the throat plate mechanism for the Sawstop, but it IS easy to remove and install and it is locked in place instead of depending on gravity alone. I have NOT had to adjust the rip fence or the 90 degree blade stop in the 2 years of ownership I check it frequently. NOTHING has moved, even after transporting the monster 50 miles from its former home to my shop, except the saw itself. It gets moved around the shop frequently to make room for various projects and operations. I even move it outside to my driveway in the good weather; so all the aforementioned bumps and thumps haven’t affected any of the adjustments at all.I do NOT have any experience with the new generation of Unisaw, or the Powermatic 2000, but I prefer a Powermatic 66 over my Unisaw (smoothness of controls and Bessey style fence), but frankly, my 3 HP Unisaw cut and held adjustments every bit as well as the 3 HP Powermatic 66. My Sawstop easily matches or exceed all aspects of the other two saws. In my experience, the feel of the controls of my Sawstop are even more smooth and accurate than the borrowed Powermatic 66’s were. I feel my Sawstop’s dust collection is exceptional for original equipment. This comparison is one-sided since neither my Unisaw or borrowed Powermatic 66 had over-blade dust collection.Sawstops web site and customer service are excellent. When they learned I’d purchased a used saw, they were very helpful assessing what I needed to add the dust collection upgrades, etc.. They also changed the registration of the ownership without hesitation.Bottom line, I feel with 2 years behind me as the reference point, my 5HP Industrial Sawstop will last me the rest of my life and my sons-in-law are already fighting over who gets in it my will. ;-)However, a used Powermatic 66, or even a Unisaw from one of the “good years” would do the same. I SUSPECT the Powermatic PM2000 will prove also prove to be long lived. Frankly long life for a table saw boils down to construction materials and tolerances. I think all the major companies are VERY particular with their cabinet-class table saw products. Additionally, I feel the Jet Pro Shop could last a life-time, but with its 1-3/4 HP motor and 30″ rails it just doesn’t compare with the saw discussed when comparing against a Powermatic 66 or 2000. BTW, Jet recognized the importance of safety and just upgraded The Pro Shop’s blade guard to a quick release style and now include a riving knife.I had freedom of choice! The price was the same for USED Sawstop vs. new something else without the flesh-sensing technology. I chose safety. I did have to wait about 6 months to find a used one, but I feel it was worth the wait.You HAVE freedom of choice too! You also can impact the way all the manufacturers behave. If you want them to invest in flesh sensing technology for the most dangerous class of shop tools, LET THEM KNOW!Now let me blow your mind. I STILL have my original Shopsmith Mark V 5120 and frequently use it with specialty blades rather than disturb my go-to tool, Sawstop table saw, in my shop. EVEN IT now has a riving knife and always had a quick release blade guard. That speaks volumes in my mind. NONE of us, irrespective our our occupations should have to have excessive exposure to tool danger. A good user-friendly blade guard and riving knife should be minimum for a modern table saw of any class or sizeI believe competition is GOOD. I hope the other major manufacturers also come up with competing flesh-sensing technology and it gets applied to band-saws, shapers, chop saws, and other typically dangerous shop tools. I hope the competition drives Sawstop to improve and reduce the prices of their products.That said, ALL the people including the management and operator of the Ryobi injury lawsuit debacle, including the courts, lawyers, jury were idiots. WHY should you REWARD someone for defeating EVERY possible safety feature Ryobi had included in their portable table saw, then getting injured? If anyone should have been sued, it should have been his employer! BUT, the lawyers knew the manufacture’s pockets and liability insurance were much deeper than a local contractor! Steve J.Portland, OR

Steven Jaynes

on 02/25/2013 at 04:28 PM

My Unisaw was a Mid-80’s model, NOT a Mid-70’s model. My bad…

anvilfireguru

on 09/13/2013 at 08:45 AM

Whirlwind – 1/8th second: A saw blade turning the typical 3600 RPM turns 7.5 rotations in that 1/8 second. The feed rate on the typical job is about 3 to 4″ per second, often faster. 1/8 of 4″ is 1/2″. . . more than enough to sever the bone in most fingers and IF the operator has slipped and is moving faster then the digit would definitely be severed. To avoid the above the Whirlwind is a big ugly guard so there is a good distance between the blade and hand, this is the kind of thing that often gets taken off machines because it does not allow the access and visibility required for many jobs. Guards also take the brunt of many kick back and snagged work incidences. Expensive electronics built into a saw guard may not have a long life (increasing the expense).ITS NOT YET AVAILABLE at any price. . . So cost is a big question. It has been over two years and the technology has not been jumped on. It may have the advantage of being a retrofit device but that depends on someone buying patent rights. The best trained workers have machine related accidents eventually. I believe the Sawstop statistics that say it is more likely the professional OR an hourly worker with many hours who will eventually screw up and have a saw accident. We humans are not perfect and even when faced with eminent danger we eventually lose that fear over too long of exposure (otherwise we would have a nervous breakdown). I’ve used high speed machinery since I was 10 years old for both wood and metal working. I’ve never had a serious accident but had some near missed. . . IT happens. I learned on old tools such as the original ShopSmith and open belt machines. I still have old open belt drill presses and lathes in my shop but I scraped a late model Chinese table saw that I inherited. Nothing on it worked right including a poorly placed on/off switch. It does not help that the market is being flooded with poorly designed and built equipment.——————————————————–I agree that making the Sawstop or similar technology a legal requirement is wrong. On the other hand I would like to see it available on other types of finger eating machines like bandsaws and jointers. However, I know there are engineering issues on bandsaws (more inertia, inability to retract blade) that may make it impossible or economically prohibitive..IF I buy a table saw in the future it will be a Sawstop saw. My son is starting a wood working business and I will be sure his table saw is a Sawstop even if I have to buy it for him. ————————————————————As for seat belts, I wish they were mandatory in school buses and other buses. I think it is sad that expensive air bags are mandatory because people will not wear seat belts but we will not put seat belts in school buses where their use can be enforced.

Devon

on 01/14/2014 at 05:51 PM

That hot dog test was not much of a test. He never moves it far enough for it to come into contact with the blade. He moves it under the blade guard just far enough for the sensor to detect it, stops and waits for the blade to stop spinning. I would sure like to have the extra safety of the SawStop, as it would be difficult to tune and play the flutes that I make with a missing/damaged digit. But I flinch every time I look at the price. I do not feel that the flesh sensing technology should be mandated, at least not until there are more options for the manufactures to select from to offer on their equipment.

Tomas

on 02/24/2014 at 03:39 PM

I remember one saw stop first came out they tried to sell it to all the big companies and no one wanted was to spending.

Bryrick Shillam

on 03/10/2014 at 11:10 AM

Does anyone know of where this tech is? I have searched the web and haven’t found anything as of late.

Jim

on 05/15/2014 at 03:25 PM

It’s interesting that a SS owner says that it makes him that much more careful; simply because if the SS is activated, the blade and the stop mechanism have to be obtained, paid for ($$), and installed, and the saw is out of commission until this is done.I’m for improving the safety features, but I don’t think manufacturers should be required to use a specific patented technology.

norm

on 05/16/2014 at 05:46 PM

Another analogy:Years ago Corning Inc developed catylitic technology to reduce auto emissions. As I heard the story, they basically went to the EPA and said, “If you require this of automakers, we will make it for them, and everyone will breathe cleaner air.” So EPA requireed it, Corning makes it, and we each pay an extra $300 or so for a car that is about 95% cleaner than otherwise. Thanks to government regulation.According to research that has appeared in the years since this was written, the stakes on tables saws are: 67,000 injuries per year, 4000 amputations, and 2.3 billion dollars in societal costs. (http://www.motherjones.com/pol.....finger-cut)By any rational democratic or financial consideration Saw Stop have been mandated years ago. The fact that this is at all controversial can be seen as a sign of our inability to cooperate toward the common good. The amputees among us (and I know a few) pay the price.

snowman55

on 06/05/2014 at 05:10 PM

A sawstop killer would be a tablesaw using using the oscillating tool principle.I wonder why there are no manufacturer s?

Chuck

on 07/16/2014 at 08:38 AM

If this technology works as well as advertised, I need to get some…

Danielle

on 09/08/2014 at 02:23 PM

I am just amused by the people complaining about the replacement cost – folks, the only way you have to replace is if you were going to cut a body part off, right? Isn’t $500 or $1,000 a fair price to pay to get a mulligan on your own mistake? I think the actual price is much nicer, but I think if the saw were destroyed that might even still be a fair tradeoff!That said, I hope the market can come up with competition, but the argument about the replacement cartridge and blade is not really looking at the big picture!

Len Rinzler

on 10/02/2014 at 09:22 AM

In the interest of disclosure, I’m a SS user. I purchased a 5 hp cabinet saw in the second year of production. Here are my comments:– Re: The expense of replacing brake and blade in the event of an actuation: Remember why you’re considering a SS in the first place: Safety. If your flesh touches the blade and activates the safety mechanism, the cost of blade replacement will be money happily spent. SS will replace the brake at no charge in the event of an actuation. Consider that, with proper safety techniques utilized, you’ll probably never activate the safety system.Re: Amount of time required to change brake and blade: I have no idea why the author of this post said that the brake wasn’t as easy/quick to exchange as the SS folks claim. It is incredible fast and easy to swap the brakes, and I bounce back and forth between the standard brake and the dado brake regularly. It takes me less than a minute to remove and replace a brake. How much faster should it be? I’m not in THAT big of a hurry!With all that said, I’m opposed to any governmental regulation regarding this technology. Does Sawstop make a great saw? Absolutely. Should their tech be mandated by law? Hell no.

Jim Alpert

on 02/13/2015 at 11:08 PM

My opinion is Saw Stop is getting messed with by the big saw maker guys. SawStop has the patents but they are only good for 17 years from date of filing. If the saw manufactures want to get the technology for free they just have to stall for a few more years . This trick has been used for years to shut down small inventors. The industry has no interest in user protection. They wouldn’t even put a splitter on their saws to prevent kick backs and their were no patents to stop them for doing so. They only started to use them recently, when the Government “suggested” they do so. They also have no interest in Dust Collection and their saws are difficult to keep dust contained. 4″ ports instead of the necessary 6″ etc. are usually provided. They just copy saws made in the 30’s with no innovation what so ever. Would you drive a ’36 car with plate glass windows and mechanical brakes ? Same deal. Saw Stop has a lawsuit going again .. An employee of a saw manufacture blew the whistle , conspiracy. . . I hope SawStop wins but the odds are not good in courts that sometime seem to be unfair to the public’s health like Tobacco. Look how long that took. If your an inventor you get 17 years to own it. If your a song writer you get lifetime + 100 years. You can’t even sing Happy Birthday in a Restaurant for the next 50. I might add, do know there is a class action suit going against Shop-Vac and Ridgid shopvacs. The have been claiming false HP claims for years, like 6.5HP from 120V. Very common in our hobby industry. Harbor Freight claims 2 HP for their DC that only runs on 120V. They used to say” peak” but no longer say that. Very misleading. It’s only about 1 HP. no way 2 HP.

Knucklenicker

on 06/05/2015 at 01:13 PM

That still leaves you with several hundred carbide teeth nibbling on your digits in 1/8 second.

simclardy

on 08/12/2015 at 08:53 PM

I was thinking along the lines of the last post. The patent has to be running out. Utility patents are actually good for 20 years, but it starts from the time you file the patent. You don’t get a patent approval for years. It can take 10+ years for approval some times (that’s why pharmaceutical companies lobbied for different patent laws). any way The reason we have patents is not to protect the inventor! it is to encourage the inventor to share his idea so the rest of us can enjoy it. Had CokaCola filed for a patent the secret would be out, but because they have no patents (correct me if i’m wrong) it’s still a secret.sorry for the patent tangent.As for government mandating? That’s a tough one. The seat belt law is similar. I am in favor of seat belts……..but the question is not always about good mandated laws…..it can also be about BAD mandated laws. In the next twenty years we may not come across any horrible laws….but can anyone guarantee that this will not lead down a slippery slope. China has a long history of infanticide. To this day they mandate abortions. what ever you think about that hot topic girls in China are discriminated against in the worst way! Could we imagine a day were America mandates draconian population control laws? I think Saw Stop debate is real and it is connected to a big picture.having said all that….I can’t wait to buy a Saw Stop! cheers

Chuck Johnson

on 08/21/2015 at 06:00 PM

I have been considering a SawStop. Yes, it’s expensive, but then I could buy a DOZEN SawStops for what the medical bill comes to if I cut off some fingers.But I got to thinking about the personal responsibility aspect. If I put a SawStop in my shop, I can almost be careless and still not get hurt BY THE TABLE SAW.But what about all the other tools in my shop that DON’T have this technology? My 8″, four-knife jointer seems even scarier than the table saw. I have two band saws. Isn’t that what butcher shops use to cut steaks? My lathe is capable of significant damage to my person. Even the drill press can hurt me. Then there a myriad of handheld power tools.So I still have to be careful in the shop even WITH the SawStop, and that false sense of security may lead to complacency, making me LESS safe overall.In any case, whether I buy a SawStop for Christmas or not, I think it’s MY coice, not the government’s.

Woody

on 09/06/2015 at 11:04 AM

Yet, here we are, 4 years later and SawStop has a lawsuit against Bosch for patent infringement. I don’t know the technical details, but it seems SawStop’s object is not to save fingers but to tie up technology and get revenue. Bosch has adapted their automotive air bag technology to saw blade retraction without damaging the blade and a back up cartridge that means your saw is not out of order until you get replacement parts.Jen February 4, 2011 1:16 pmAs I once commented on another forum:>Still, there is one thing in the debate about the cost of licensing>SawStop’s patents that’s been bothering me ever since I looked it up.>US Patent #3785230, filed Nov 8, 1972. With such well-described prior>art, the scope of SawStop’s patent is heavily restricted, and any>company that wanted to make a similar system could invent their own>system and market it without paying SawStop a dime.To be a bit more specific, SawStop’s key innovations are the use of an aluminum honeycomb for the blade stop mechanism, and the use of the blade’s own inertia to retract it below table level. Their capacitive sensor is an industry standard, pretty much the same technology as used in the iPod or in a Synaptics touchpad, and the idea of using it to stop a blade, potentially by shoving a stop block into that blade, was quite well described in that (expired) patent that I linked.It’s possible, for example, for a system to be devised that directly retracts the blade mechanism, perhaps using springs or compressed gas, upon blade contact detection, while simply disconnecting the power and letting it spin down at normal speed. Completely non-destructive to the blade, and the acceleration required to match SawStop’s safety is achievable.

Joe

on 11/21/2015 at 10:33 AM

While I love the SS tech and I am even considering it for my non-pro shop. This was my concern. Would I feel too safe? Especially my 14″ bandsaw. That thing IS scary. I resaw on that thing and it would take your arms off before you could realize what had actually happened.

Marc Spagnuolo

on 11/21/2015 at 04:09 PM

Well, if you can look at a 10″ blade spinning at that rpm and NOT be cautious around it, your stones are bigger than mine are, lol. SawStop or not, a spinning blade that cuts through lumber like butter still garners respect from my brain. It’s like a seat belt and air bag in my car. Do I drive more dangerously because I have them? Heck no. I still would prefer not to be in a collision.

roy grady

on 02/01/2016 at 11:26 PM

Regardless of how long it takes to replace the brake/blade and forget the cost, it cannot pay the cost of an appendage loss. I am for this type technology although I don’t really expect to upgrade my green Powermatic 66. My underlying reason is not as a skeptic but from my own basic working experience. The longer I work with my hands I find them calloused and tough not soft and moist like a wiener. The sensor needs a conductor (if you will) to complete its circuit so the trigger of conductance, capacitance, empedence or resistivity of a dry finger is much different them a tender moist one. This difference might make the difference between a finger with no blood and a finger with a blade-wide gash. Either way is much better then a ‘lost’ finger. I have all of mine and with the proper safety practices I continue to use I expect and hope to keep them all intact. If the upgrade is under $100.00 I might spring for it. Wonder if they have a stop for the band saw?

Jay S.

on 03/31/2016 at 03:25 PM

Any solid updates with this tech? I’ve mellowed a bit toward SawStop, especially after getting to use one at a place I worked, but market alternatives would be nice.

David B Hewes

on 04/26/2016 at 06:39 AM

Can’t we have both… a Sawstop with a Whirlwing guard?

Jim Bontrager

on 05/10/2016 at 10:04 AM

SawStop is definately overplaying their hand. I completely agree that govt has no place in my shop and a free market should drive innovation, that said SawStop and the lawyer behind it is attempting to create a monopoly. That said they run two risks, one is somebody else will build a better mousetrap. Whirlwind is an example of that. Stopping the blade in 1/8 of a second and doing it before you contact the blade should be ample time, the time is really about how fast you can get your hand from the detection point to the blade, an eighth of a second should be a good starting point. Second, and you can ask the car manufactures about this one, if the govt mandates it, you will be forced to sell the technology to your competitors at whatever price the govt sees fit, and you could be looking a slim to no profit margin (you said you just wanted to keep people safe right? no need for that pesky profit then). The govt will assure that there is no monopoly, right AT&T? So SawStop now has the competition working on a better, more cost effective solution, AND the govt to watch out for. Training is still the best bet, I would not be trying to touch a SawStop blade either, esp with the cartridge costing about $100 and the blade $75, might seem insignificant to someone that can drop 5K on a saw, but to those who have $6 -800 in, it is significant. While I might not mind if it saved my finger, I would be steamed if there was a wet spot in the wood I was cutting and it cost me $200 that I could be spending on the project instead of repairing a saw. one more point for Whirlwind.

Richard Sorge

on 05/29/2016 at 05:08 AM

No way. How can You use a tablesaw with that box on it ? I have dozens of jigs and sleds that go in the miter slot or along the fence and caress the blade at 0,001″ of distance, my fingers safely away…. How could I use them with that circus box there ?

Phil Harris

on 09/26/2016 at 10:54 AM

I have a Saw Stop cabinet saw. I purchased it at my wife’s request as I have a condition that requires a blood thinner. Since that is the case I can’t take the chance of losing a digit. Now of course I have other equipment in the shop that can perform that function just as easily. But I use the table saw more often and am very careful regarding the other machinery. I’ve use other table saws and have owned others and will say that the SS PCS is a great machine plus the safety factor. I also agree that proper training makes all the difference, but there is that chance…

James Walker

on 11/18/2016 at 02:21 PM

Ok–novice woodworker here, but here are my thoughts…My Dad is 70+ and has hacked away at wood for a good 55 years of that. His eyesight isn’t what it used to be and neither is his reaction time. Plus, he’s often working alone in the barn or basement. Poor bastard would bleed-out before anyone found him if he was unlucky enough to open an artwork! I’d like to get him the s/s as an upgrade for has 6-8 saws. But, you can’t do that, can you?? And replacing his lifetime workshop would cost tens of thousands of dollars! Plus, there all in excellent condition.I know that any for-profit exists to make money, but has any company explored a way to make the hundreds of thousands of saws that are already out there and in use safer at a price point that is accessible to everyone?The point that an injury avoided is also a medical bill avoided is a salient one. Maybe the government should invest some money into researching this, or perhaps a group of building material and home supply companies could and then produce a low-cost, universal add-on.I can personally think of 3 people off the top of my head that sustained serious injuries from saws–and I don’t even work in the field. These were experienced carpenters and were not being careless… One had debris fall on him from a construction site while he was ripping a board and another had someone bump into him…the other one got distracted for a split second…

SumoSid

on 07/11/2017 at 03:56 PM

Agreed. Shop safety is first an foremost the onus of the individual. That said, GOVT laws on seatbelts, helmets, outlawing 3 wheeler ATV’s, et… have all saved many many lives. If WE know of a safer way, we should take it. Lets face it. Corporations are out to make money, unfortunately the only avenue for safety improvements in the past have been on the shoulders of class action lawsuits or GOVT intervention. I prefer the intervention as I see the law route even more inefficient than the GOVT route… I can’t believe I just called the GOVT efficient… hahaha

Rick

on 09/01/2017 at 03:23 PM

The article says: “As responsible saw owners, most of us know that proper training and safe practices are the best way to prevent accidents.” Well as a Safety Professonal I disagree. Training and safe practices are administrative controls and skill based controls. These type of safety controls are not as effective as an engineering control. The best protection is for some sort of physical barrier to keep people from comming in contact with the rotating blade. The second best is the technology being used. This type of control is considered an “engineering control” and people have not choice to use it of not-its there. Since human error is ALLWAYS present-engineering controls are highly effective. The controls sighted by the author are all subject to human error.

Jan Breitigam

on 01/07/2018 at 06:59 PM

I just came across this forum and while I have not read every post, I did read most of them. I am typing with one hand as two fingers of my left hand are stitched and taped up due to an interface between my fingers and the blade of the table saw I was using. I cannot truly tell you what happened. I was ripping a fence board and still had approximately one foot to finish when it happened. I can say positively that my fingers were not in the cutting path. Beyond that, I can only guess. I was told later that the rip stopped at a knot in the plank, so I think it was a kickback that knocked my hand into the blade. It is too early into the healing to know what the final result will be, but I will not be playing my Uke for a long time if ever. I have always been a safety conscious person on the job, but that did not save my fingers this time. I have two table saws, both inherited from my grandfathers. I will save the motors from them, but they will be scrapped and replaced with a new saw that I hope I never need the safety aspects of. When riding my motorcycle, I wear the gear I hope to never need. The arguments of “I cannot afford it” don’t stack up against the cost of injury. I always thought my careful ways and safe working habits were enough. I was painfully proved wrong.

jbf16falcon

on 01/31/2018 at 08:14 AM

Personally I’d like to look down at all my fingers after actuating the S.S. and just mumble to myself “Dummy, you were feeling too safe”, replace the brake and blade and continue lecturing mt Whole self.

Jerry Zakariasen

on 04/09/2018 at 11:34 PM

Drill press and high HP buffing wheel are likely the two most dangerous tools in the shop. They look pretty mundane and passive and the uninitiated tend to get careless around them. I know an experience knife maker was killed when the blade he was buffing was ripped from his hands and went around the buffer wheel and was flung straight at his head. The rest of the story is not pretty. I read about guy who bought a 1.5 hp 3400 rpm buffer. The knife he was working on caught up and was flung right through the wall of his shop and he found it bent up in a U shape on his lawn 20 feet from wall it busted through.

Brett Evans

on 11/23/2018 at 09:46 AM

You’re a wanker. Plain & simple.Hope you’ve been waiting at your door all these years since you spewed this anal vomit onto the internet for all to read.I hope for your family’s sake that your day job is a bell hop or something similar, because you might be waiting by the door for a long time!-Sawstop owner, waiving right back at you with all ten fingers:)

Jamie

on 12/08/2018 at 12:48 AM

Yes! One only has to look at what has happened to driving skills with the advent of anti-lock brakes and all wheel drive. Idiots think they can drive just as fast in bad weather as in good weather.Also, table saw accidents rarely involve a finger that just barely contacts the blade. There is usually motion involved. Let’s see some actual case histories of accidents and the actual damage involved.

Reginald Smith

on 12/26/2018 at 12:13 AM

Your comments truly helped me make my decision in finally purchasing the SS. Truly sorry for your loss but grateful to you for sharing.

Dr. Daniel F. Coughlin, Esq.

on 04/03/2019 at 08:22 AM

I have no problem with Federal regulations requiring safety mechanisms in table saws. The lawnmower analogy makes sense. Also, there are many other Federally-mandated safety devices in everyday items. Just think of seat belts. The cost-benefit advantage is there.As for SawStop, my only regret is that their technology is the only one available. Competition is good, and is what is behind our whole patent system. From an additional perspective, think about woodworking programs in public schools. Before becoming a college professor and a patent attorney, I was a high school teacher. I was friendly with the woodshop faculty due to me interest in woodworking. I knew both students and one of the instructors who were seriously injured in table saw incidents, including the starting quarterback of the football team. Let me put my lawyer hat on here for a moment. If it was your child who was seriously injured in a tablesaw incident, what would your reaction be? If you were aware of the availability of technology such as SawStop, what would your reaction be when you realize that the school system chose not to purchase saws with this technology? From a legal perspective, it could be argued that school systems have a duty to use the safest technology available and that failure to do so was the proximate cause of your child’s injury, resulting in a breach of the duty to provide equipment that could easily have prevented that injury. The school system could then be legally liable in a negligence case.

Robert Farmer

on 06/10/2019 at 08:52 AM

On the issue of speed of cartridge replacement: I’ve used SS for about 3 months now. I’ve had one activation (not flesh related, I ran into a nail). It took realistically 10 minutes to replace the cartridge and 30 minutes to get over the shock. It isn’t difficult to get the cartridge out, but you do have to get firm because its not only the cartridge off the cartridge arbor, you also have to get the BLADE off the blade arbor. I used a prybar.As far as changing blades, I’ve found the SS to actually be easier than my former Rigid. I don’t know why, it just is. Changing cartridges between dado and 10″ is not hard at all and takes about 2 minutes.Time is really NOT an issue for blade changes, blade type changes, or activation caused changes.As far as cost of blades goes after an activation? My insurance specifically sets a $1500 copay for “appendage replacement surgery”. That buys a LOT of blades.

Tom

on 09/05/2019 at 03:37 PM

Sawstop advertises stop time less than 5 milliseconds. That is 0.005 second, not 1/5000 second (0.0002 second). I calculate that a 10 inch blade (5 inch tooth radius) will stop before the second tooth makes contact (depending on the number of teeth on the blade).

Jeff Anderson

on 10/21/2019 at 05:01 PM

Pretty much any technology of any real significance is first adopted by people of more means. It takes time for it to make its way into the price range that many would be willing to pay. Nobody says only rich people deserve it. People who bring these things to market just know that the price will necessarily be higher on new technology because startups need significant investment, and early adoption will be slow. Rich people end up paying for the early models, and poorer people get the benefit of lower prices on improved models later on. The early adopters, then pay again for the improved models, and sell the old high priced technology at steeply discounted prices to poorer people.What happens when the government mandates it? Poor people are priced out of the market for new saws, because mandates rarely bring prices down, particularly in the short run. Then, of course, the calls for price restrictions begin. This lowers the upside for manufacturers competing for market share, and they move on to something else, and prices stay higher much longer. Happens everytime it’s tried on anything of any significance. You get affordable computers today, because others paid more and got less for their money decades ago. And look, no mandate from Uncle Scam for any particuler feature! Just consumer preferences and evolving industry standards.

D. Brown

on 10/23/2019 at 07:22 AM

You are spot on! I believe there is a “duty to act” with regards to a student or child is involved. Perhaps not in same sense as providing medical care for others, but certainly, in my mind, a responsibility to use technology that greatly increases safety.I am 66 and have used table saws since my teenage years. No accidents. But, I did buy a SawStop because a know my senses are going to diminish with age. This is insurance; and the price of a destroyed component & blade doesn’t even compare to physical damage to my body. SawStop is an excellent company; impeccable service, and solid, well made saws.I am retired from the fire department. I was also a Paramedic and attended to a few saw injuries in my career. It happens in a split second, but your life is affected from then on. Using power equipment demands that you take a few seconds to mentally review your next steps.

Mike Kanitsch

on 12/13/2019 at 05:29 PM

I recall another well known company releasing a flesh detecting saw a few years ago, and Saw Stop suing them for patent infringement. They lost the suit and pulled the saw from the market. The process was “similar” to Saw Stop’s as I recall, except it did not destroy the blade. They advertised actuation to back to work in less than 5 minutes. However, I guess anything at all similar is patent infringement and you’re gonna lose, unlike what you see in electronics (think about smart phone tech and some of the suits that have been “lost” over the years since there was something maybe slightly different).I should probably let you know I am a “blind” woodworker who lost over 95% of my vision almost 20 years ago. Prior to that the last time I had done any type of woodwork was in Jr. High, 40+ years earlier. The VA taught me how to make pens, from choosing stock to final polish. We did not use a table saw, but did use a band saw. They taught methods for material handling, measuring, cutting, drilling and turning the wood; I fell in love with the concept of making something by hand with wood and built myself a (VERY) small shop in a converted Tuff Shed. When I moved, I scratch built the shop I have now (still just about 250 sq. ft., but it’s about double what I had). Although most of my work is on the lathe, I have built a few items in there also. I would LOVE to have a S.S., but at the price they are with my retirement income, it’ll probably never happen. Guess I’ll just have to continue to be extra careful.

Guy

on 03/06/2020 at 04:43 PM

Felder PCS, Brilliant! I don’t think available for the hobbyist but for pros, this is awesome. Non-destructive and virtually no downtime.https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....fUNreKOWkgBTW, am in the middle of assembling my new 3HP SS Pro tablesaw. I’m a hobby woodworker. Upgraded from a Triton system I had for a lot of years. The financial decision to go SawStop wasn’t easy, (in Australia $5k) but I think the safety aspect is worth it.Haven’t heard of any government discussions here on this matter but if the U.S. goes down that path in all likelihood we’ll follow.

Arthur Michelson

on 10/14/2020 at 12:49 AM

IMO there is something pathological about the “Don’t tell me what to do.” attitude of so many people. Wearing masks during the Covid-19 pandemic is not a matter of choice, since ‘your’ choice can endanger others. There are speed limits on the highways – you don’t have the right to go as fast as you want, because the person who you kill might be more than yourself. Etc.. Here’s a good slogan: “It’s not just about you!” The number of people maimed by table saws who are ‘careful’ and ‘experienced’ is proof enough for mandating safety measures. Yes, the SS is expensive, but if all manufacturers had to include similar safety measures, the prices would go down.

Derek Jensen

on 07/26/2021 at 11:58 AM

This comment didn’t age well. 2021 and SawStop is still going strong.

Perspective

on 01/17/2023 at 06:17 PM

Ok I will bite as well. Intriguing article to be sure, but it’s difficult to navigate which question is being asked. It seems most responses have to do with safety and how they feel about SawStop’s technology. I felt it was more directed towards the business aspect of government involvement and whether SawStop should be pushing for something that could potentially ruin them. SawStop; regardless of approval, ownership, experience, or opinions…they have a product that is currently unmatched in the marketplace. They wouldn’t have become a major competitor to Dewalt, Jet, or Grizzly almost overnight otherwise. Who would have bought a SawStop on chance against other name brands if it didn’t stop? My point is, 99% of their sales can be attributed specifically to their stopping technology. But are they getting greedy? Maybe what started out as good intentions, was far more sinister. They have done well for themselves up to this point, but urging the government to mandate stopping technology doesn’t promise them more sales. Do you really think Dewalt or Jet are just gonna pay up to any vendor let alone a competitor? Of course not. They are going to hire more engineers and dump tons of money into R&D and figure out their own version of technology to use. It’s like asking for MORE competition. Right now they are coasting on the fact that other manufacturers have little incentive to re-design the wheel. If it became mandatory, you are now forcing several companies with deep pockets to figure out a system that is on par with yours. With all the money that big companies could dump into R&D, if they had to, it’s almost sure that somebody will come up with a system far superior to yours. Or maybe on par with yours but far cheaper or easier to manufacture. Whatever the case may be, it’s like challenging the biggest companies in the game to do it better. Yes, you have innovative product. You’ve been successful. But now you’re poking a sleeping giant. These companies already employ teams of engineers, lean six sigma black belts, process technicians, etc all for the sake of finding ways to trim the fat. They have been a business a long time and they know that an innovative product is good, but they spend way more on improving manufacturing processes than they do on R&D. Because in the long run, that is more sustainable than any new innovation. You might spike in sales for the duration of your patent…but as soon as that patent is up…you now have nothing that everyone else can’t also have and so unless you’ve been investing just as much money on perfecting the manufacturing process as they do, you’ll be squeezed out eventually because bet your last dollar they will take your innovation and improve upon it’s design, it’s features, it’s cost and improve on the manufacturing process of it as well. And let’s be honest, companies don’t spend billions of dollars a year on lobbying for the sake of moral ground. They influence laws with money, to make money. Almost every law that exists nowadays is about money. We know we aren’t supposed to kill people. We don’t need a Congress for that, everyone kind of understands the basic principles of what’s right and wrong and those laws have been in place for hundreds of years. It didn’t take 500 people arguing back and forth, being unproductive and stubborn children, and taking limo rides to and from the capital building and other grandiose halls built just for them at our expense simply to determine that murder is bad. So the fact that we pay them (or rather we are victims of extortion) so they can take back door payoffs to pass laws that companies think are in their best interest really pisses me off. They spend billions on lobbying TO GET WHAT THEY WANT. And I can guarantee that anyone influencing government legislation is doing so with money and nothing else, and therefor it is based on greed and not moral high ground. Trying getting a law passed without spending a dime. Not possible. Even if you don’t have to blatantly pay off the committee chairman, you have to spend money to raise awareness about an issue to get others to pressure the government. Even then, whatever you want is always being countered by other big companies with deep pockets so even if you do get half the nation on your side, now you have convince a narcissistic psycho to do the right thing vs taking home a half million dollars for him and his family or securing his next election by having the most campaign funds. The only time it seems like the law isn’t about money, like when they employ anti-trust lawyers to go after Bill Gates or Facebook isn’t because they care about monopolies…the government themselves operate tons of monopolies! No, it’s simply because they aren’t getting their share of that wealth and they are scared of any one company having more money or power than the government itself. Shame on SawStop, but at the same time, they will probably be out of business in 10 to 20 because of it. Once everyone else is forced to come up with their own version, SawStops technology will be nothing special and without it do you think they would have ever gotten this far? Absolutely not. Bad business practices in my opinion and certainly not going to survive against cut throat cooperations that have been in this game a lot longer than they have. Also, considering all the other small timers that also have innovations like this Whirlwind…if you’re company is based around the business equivalent if a one hit wonder…it didn’t take 7 years (or however long their patent is good for) for the Macarena to get old and die, it took about 6 months.

Whirlwind – A SawStop Killer?

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